Written by the reviewer from the ASR + docket; [verbatim-ASR] = quoted machine transcript; [paraphrase] = reviewer's wording, not a quote.
0:00 everybody. I'm going to call the Public Safety Committee to order on October 20th at 634 p.m.
0:10 Our first order of business is to approve the minutes from the September 15, 2025
0:15 public safety meeting. I'll make a motion for that. Do I have a second?
0:21 The motion has been made and seconded. Any comments or confusion or disagreement?
0:29 None. All in favor? And that motion passes. The next motion I'd like to make is to substitute
0:38 the latest TRN version from the law department that was dated 1013 as our new working document.
0:45 That is the one that removes the responsibility of the city for financing this program.
0:52 Second. Is that the one that's on with the agenda? That's the one that I meant I sent to you and Cindy.
0:59 And it's the one in the agenda? That's the one in the agenda, okay.
1:04 So I'd like to make a motion to substitute that version as our working document.
1:10 Second. All in favor?
1:13 Aye. Any disagreement? And that motion passes.
1:18 All right. So I want to look at this document just for a minute. We have some of the members
1:24 from La Swab in the community here with the law department and the animal control officer,
1:29 Mr. Crumley, are here as well. We're getting very close. I feel like we're getting close.
1:35 And I want to say, first of all, thank you to Jennifer and law director Vargo for all your
1:41 work and all your patience with this. We just want to give you a little bit of a
1:46 little bit of time to get this right. We just want to get this right the way that,
1:51 you know, we don't have to go, oh, gosh, we're going to have to go back in six months
1:54 because we missed something here. And I think with the input that we got from
2:01 Dana Pinella at our last La Swab meeting, she gave us some insight into a couple areas
2:07 that we definitely want to look at. Specifically, unsanitary conditions,
2:13 from what I understand, there's still a problem on Davis Court, even though measures have been
2:18 taken there to control the cat population, it's still out of control. So we want to put some
2:26 information together, some verbiage together to make sure that if unsanitary conditions are
2:33 there, that we can do something about it. So that's one of the pieces.
2:37 Some of it was just some simple wording. One of the things that she had requested was
2:44 if the animal control supervisor has to have a dog treated
2:52 to save the life of the dog, then the owner has to pay for that when they come to pick it up.
2:56 So those just kind of detail type things. So we have just a little bit of work to do
3:03 left on this one. But I think moving to this version will give us a little more clarity
3:11 and we'll add a couple more things. Do you all want to say anything from La Swab?
3:16 Go ahead, please come on up.
3:26 Oh, I'm supposed to make you got it. Now it's supposed to stay green, right?
3:30 Okay. I'm Nancy Binder. I am the chair of La Swab. We have a very engaged meeting on TNR.
3:41 It's an issue we have been working for over a year on. Lakewood is a city that's very
3:50 condensed. We have a large population of cats. Found out how well doing a program works with
3:59 resident cats. The problem with outdoor cats is they keep breeding and that's one of the
4:07 reasons for this ordinance. We had a couple of things in the ordinance you gave us that
4:15 we discussed at the meeting, Cindy. I don't know if they have changed out,
4:20 but I'm going to just do a short snippet of that. Go right ahead. Okay. On registration,
4:28 the city wanted it required. You wanted it changed or recommended. Our board would prefer
4:36 not having the registration at all because they feel it would turn away large groups
4:45 and how do you control that. The other thing about registration is we have three ACOs.
4:55 A town of our size for ACOs is having a group of three to five ACOs.
5:06 Tell me what ACO is. Animal control officer. Thank you. I'm sorry.
5:13 They're backed up all the time. Gary runs a really good but tight ship. There's always
5:19 something going on. There's always 30 cats or kittens or hopefully then another waterberry beagle.
5:27 Davis Court, which is what we always use as our example because Davis Court got fed up with their
5:38 feral cats, their community cats. They trapped, they brought them in and by law Gary had to
5:45 dispense with them. There are over 50 cats. You're asking a staff of three to
5:54 do something that only a hard-hearted person could go do and not be affected by.
6:02 Our ACOs are all very kind people. It is not the fun part of their job at all.
6:09 Since TNR is to reduce the population and it does work, you TNR them, put them back in their
6:21 colony. The colony dies off because they're not reproducing and other cats in this way
6:28 don't come in and repopulate the area. Right now Davis Court is getting repopulated because
6:37 a vacuum was made and the cats are just coming in.
6:40 The paperwork is something I think would be and the board thinks would be pretty onerous if we're
6:52 doing large TNRs which is required to really get a whole colony. The funds that you said about
7:04 getting out of the ordinance, it's probably best to have funds out of the ordinance depending
7:09 on how it goes, but there could be grants that could take care of things. The city could fund
7:17 like they did the spay and neuter program as we have this. We have a population that
7:25 over 500 cats of residents couldn't afford to spay or neuter their own cat. They're not
7:32 going to take their funds and spay and neuter a community cat no matter how irritating it is to them.
7:43 I recommend that not in the ordinance but outside the ordinance there's flexibility
7:52 to get it subsidized in some way and flexibility to have
7:58 whoever writes grants for the city help us find grants. We know the typical ones but
8:07 there's always somebody underneath the surface that we would miss.
8:11 If the city does pay through these, one of the advantages is
8:27 that to get the money from the city or the grants, they would have to apply through Gary
8:34 and that would give us a framework of what's being done, where is it being done,
8:40 how's it being done. The training, since there's no official training site that gives you know
8:50 here you've been trained, here's your certificate, that's a hard one on how do you show you're
8:58 trained, how do you get it to Gary that you've been trained. There can be a link from his
9:06 website and just say here you go. It could have a little click on it that you've been there.
9:14 It doesn't have to be official, it doesn't have to be anything, but people do tend to
9:19 think you could trap out and come back in two days, which is not best practices.
9:25 So those are the things LA SWAB had for your consideration and I hope we get this
9:32 ordinance through because it's really going to help the city of Lakewood and the residents,
9:39 especially Davis Court, where it's the area that we need to focus on right now.
9:46 Thank you. Thank you. I did receive some of the language today from Dana Pennella on what
9:52 she thinks could be helpful in this and LA SWAB and I are going to look at this together
9:58 at the next meeting. Cindy, you're going to be off the hook again for the next meeting. I'll
10:02 go to that one too and then we'll work through that and see what pieces we can pull out of that
10:09 for the unsanitary conditions and anything else that we feel like we're missing in there,
10:13 that LA SWAB feels like we're missing in there and then we'll have another version of this
10:19 and we'll look at it again at that time. Do you have any comments or questions? Go ahead.
10:25 Yeah, I wonder. So, you know, I'm following the emails, but obviously we can't consult
10:30 as a committee until we're all here. So I appreciate LA SWAB's work and
10:35 ACO Cromley and Law Department and you and my other colleague on the
10:41 Hope City Committee. I wonder if we can just get, seems like this registration point is
10:47 kind of the one, right, that we're working towards resolution on. So I wonder if it can
10:53 just be explained better so that we as a committee can kind of understand
10:58 where LA SWAB is coming from and then where ACO Cromley is coming from. Would that be helpful?
11:04 Yeah, we had gone around that quite a bit. We had a long conversation about that in the LA
11:09 SWAB meeting and it's my, and you can please speak up if you'd like to. It's my understanding
11:14 that any type of registration or any type of training is just not going to work at all for
11:21 the people that are doing this type of work. Come on up, Megan.
11:34 Hi. Hi. Again, I'm Megan Gallada, the Community Cats Director for CLAWS,
11:39 the Citizens Committee for Lakewoods Animals and Shelter. The one piece that I did want to
11:45 add on to that is that required registration and showing proof of training is the piece that's
11:54 not going to work. We did talk in the meeting about a group such as CLAWS providing training
12:01 for people, just that it should not be required in order to do TNR. So that was just a little
12:08 piece, but the required registration and the requirement to show proof of training
12:15 are the pieces that we want struck. That, from our perspective in representing what Dana
12:21 talked about as well, is that there is no universal or national training program for TNR.
12:32 We do know of a program. It costs money and it's only done once a month,
12:37 so that's going to be a barrier to people. As a community, we and even other TNR groups
12:44 are willing to do training for people, but we just feel strongly that it shouldn't be
12:49 in the ordinance required and registration shouldn't be required because that's going
12:55 to be really onerous for people who are good Samaritans doing this out of the goodness
13:01 of their heart with their own money and their own time to help the cats and ultimately
13:08 help Lakewood and their neighbors. So that's the little piece that we talked about,
13:14 required registration and showing proof of training is the piece that we don't want.
13:22 I believe that the language coming from Dana is going to include something like
13:27 recommended, understanding of recommended best practices, something like that so that people do
13:34 actually know that there are best practices. They're not laws. They change like best practices
13:40 can, but I think that's in the piece that she has sent as well. So thank you so much.
13:46 Thank you. Mr. Vargo, did you want to comment on that or Jen?
13:52 Yeah, so I'll hand it over to Ernie in a minute. A couple of points I wanted to make.
13:56 I believe in July of this year we changed and I'm not sure if this was completely circulated
14:02 to everybody. I know it was circulated to members of this committee that the application
14:07 process would be a one-time annual registration. We can make that available online. We'll work
14:13 with information systems to do that. We would require name, home address, phone number,
14:19 addresses where they plan on trapping and then, you know, an electronic signature.
14:26 We removed the requirement that they show us proof from a property owner that they have
14:32 permission to trap on that property. We understand why that would be problematic.
14:37 That was a requirement that we were thinking of would be protecting the trappers, but if
14:42 you know, they're willing to do that, we're fine with that. And then the only other requirement for
14:53 registration is that at some point you let us know if there's other addresses that are
14:58 being trapped and that can just be a simple email to one of the animal control officers
15:03 so that if they get a question from a resident about something that's going on,
15:08 then they can respond appropriately that, wait, no, this is part of a TNR program.
15:12 They're permitted to be doing this with the permission of the property owner.
15:17 On the training, we also have changed that. We heard that
15:23 complaint early on in the process and changed it from a certificate to training as approved by
15:33 the animal control supervisor so that if somebody says, hey, you know, shows a printout from I went
15:42 to this seminar that if he's comfortable with that, then that's okay. And I believe it was
15:50 Ms. Binder that talked about best practices. If there isn't some sort of training, even if
15:58 it's just a pamphlet that we create that somebody signs off on and says that they've read and
16:03 reviewed, how do we know that folks participating know what the best practices are? You pointed
16:08 to, you know, leaving an animal in a trap for two days, which is not ideal.
16:16 I just feel that we need to have some minimum regulations. We've
16:20 we met with Claus and Leswab probably going on three years ago when they first came to
16:29 us wanting to have a TNR program, sat down with all the groups, came up with our policy
16:34 that was implemented at that time. Obviously, after time, there's things with that policy
16:39 that's not working, which kind of spearheaded this conversation. And, you know, we've had
16:45 multiple conversations in committee. I've met with Council Member Striebig. I attended virtually
16:53 an LSWAB meeting in which I believe Megan offered to help us provide training,
17:00 some sort of a video that we could have people watch, and that would meet our minimum
17:04 qualifications. And I know Ernie had some comments as well.
17:09 Thank you. Thank you, Chairperson. This ordinance that's drafted, the required registration,
17:22 let's just talk about that. I can't emphasize enough that it has nothing to do with anybody
17:29 here. It has nothing to do with C-Claus, Leswab, or good people who are going to do this
17:36 out of the goodness of their heart and in the best interests of the city. It has nothing to do
17:42 with them. If it were just them, we wouldn't have registration. We wouldn't need anything.
17:49 We just had cybersecurity meeting. We wouldn't need that for anybody in this room because
17:54 nobody's going to hack anything. It's for the bad actors. The law department is simply trying
18:00 to protect the city, cat owners, cats, from potential bad actors or perhaps people who are
18:09 careless and negligent, who don't take this practice nearly as seriously as they should
18:14 or like these good people would. So we have a very basic, non-objectively burdensome
18:22 registration. As Ms. Swallow said, name, address, phone number, and where you're going
18:29 to be trapping. Sign and date. Not onerous, objectively. If this deters some bad actor
18:39 or careless actor out there, that's great. That's the intent. If some modest training that
18:46 we're talking about deters the bad actor, the careless actor, that's what we're focused on.
18:53 So we're talking about the bad actors. We're not talking about anybody here. It's certainly
19:01 not Megan when she says it's burdensome. We wouldn't put any burden on these people.
19:07 We're just trying to protect the city from those who might have ill intention. Thank you.
19:15 Thank you. You want to speak again, Megan?
19:25 With all respect to you guys, there was a very long and very detailed meeting
19:32 where Dana Marie Pennella of Holland and Myrden, experts in animal law in the state of Ohio,
19:43 came to speak at the Lessois meeting. She is an expert in this. She also represents
19:50 Alley Cat Allies, the nationally recognized group, if not internationally recognized group for TNR.
19:59 Ms. Striebig put it on to Mr. Crumley and you guys to talk to her because she addressed all
20:09 the reasons that registration is not going to work. You may feel it's not onerous.
20:17 I'm here to tell you it is. And I want you to understand very clearly as someone who has
20:28 been doing TNR in Lakewood for over a decade and has been very actively doing it since January 2024
20:38 that I will not continue to TNR in Lakewood. And my friends are not going to TNR in Lakewood
20:45 if registration is required and if any kind of proof of training is required.
20:51 I gave a very impassioned speech at that meeting. I wish you could have attended it.
20:58 And we had an expert attorney come and speak. She deals with things in Cleveland,
21:06 cases against people with dogs. She deals with all cities. She has helped develop ordinances
21:13 across the state of Ohio. Registration is not going to work. As she explained,
21:20 it will have a chilling effect on TNR in this city. Ask Mr. Crumley how many kittens have come
21:28 into the shelter this year. And that's after I TNR'd all last year, except for a few months
21:34 when I couldn't due to my mom's health condition. And other people are TNRing.
21:40 The weekend before the Leswab meeting, somebody had trapped eight or nine cats.
21:46 They did not tell Mr. Crumley. It's already happening. This bad actors
21:53 does not happen. And as Dana explained, you have other pieces in the legislation
22:00 in the ordinance to deal with it if it does. She provided a whole huge document
22:08 of model language that can be pulled upon. Much of it improves things that
22:15 Lakewood's ordinance doesn't even have now. That doesn't even give Mr. Crumley
22:21 permission to do things he needs to do. I indicated in that meeting,
22:28 and I'm going to indicate to you now, and indicate to this committee,
22:33 I don't want this to be seen as a warning, because that's truly not how I intend it.
22:40 But we have tried and tried and tried, and you just heard the chair of Leswab give her
22:49 recommendations out of that meeting. You just heard her say it. Next time, I will figure
22:57 out what meeting it's going to be, and we will fill this room. We will fill this room
23:03 and we will have the media here. Because we feel that strongly, we need TNR in Lakewood.
23:11 There are cats everywhere. You need people in Lakewood to say, I've got a couple cats.
23:17 I can do this. Or another group, say somebody in Columbus, or a riggy rescue in another city,
23:25 or claws, or lucky paws, another rescue, to say, we can come in and we can do these three
23:32 streets. No one is going to do that if they're being required to register. No one. And I can
23:43 fill this room with people who say that. And trust me, I don't want that to be a threat.
23:50 I'm telling you the reality of what you're looking at doing. We need people to TNR.
23:57 Please, stop micromanaging it. Other cities that don't contribute any money, no staff to TNR,
24:06 they don't have these rules. Find other cities that are doing nothing that have these rules.
24:13 They don't exist. They don't exist. And I know that Dana is ready to speak to you guys
24:22 at length about that. About best practices for municipal ordinances. No other cities require this.
24:31 It's micromanaging something that doesn't need to be micromanaged. We've already offered to do
24:37 training. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, we did have a lengthy conversation
24:42 about this. And I agreed to look at the recommended language and have LaSueb look at
24:48 this recommended language from Dana Ponella and pull some new verbiage out of that.
24:55 So we'll do that as a next step. And if anybody has any other questions,
25:01 we can pursue that. Or we can table this until the next meeting.
25:08 Yeah, that's fine. I do sense, you know, some consternation. And I,
25:14 um, you know, I think the law department is good at their job. They're trying hard. And you all are
25:23 excellent volunteers. And so I don't, you know, I think you should direct your eye at us.
25:28 You know, not the law department. We're the electeds in this room and we can handle it.
25:31 So that's, that's all I'll say. And we have a duty to figure this out and, you know,
25:36 take your input and take the law department's input and try to come up with a good,
25:39 um, you know, ordinance, but it's on us. So please direct it to us. Thank you.
25:46 You want to add anything?
25:49 No, just that I think that we just need to continue to evaluate this and
25:55 we'll keep working on it because I hear it from both sides. Well, nobody does it this way.
25:59 Nobody does it this way. Somewhere in the middle. We're gonna, we're gonna figure this
26:03 out. And recommended training was something that, um, Megan had agreed to do. And,
26:09 you know, maybe that ends up being a pamphlet too. I don't know what that ends up being.
26:13 And maybe, uh, Liz Swab can start putting together some ideas for what training looks like.
26:26 All right. Good. Okay. With no further questions, um, we're gonna move on to
26:30 our communication from fire chief Fairbanks.
26:44 Chief, the floor is yours.
26:46 Am I on? I'm on. Okay. Thank you. Uh, good evening, ladies and gentlemen.
26:53 The purpose of this presentation is just to inform council, uh, of our upcoming fire engine
27:00 purchase that, uh, I will speak to it a little bit more. It is in our 2028 capital plan.
27:07 I just want to explain how the process goes, um, how we determine what Lakewood needs
27:15 and just how that decision is made at the end of the day.
27:24 So I'll give a little bit of background of how we replace vehicles
27:28 and how that process goes. Our capital planning process, uh, we do have an apparatus committee,
27:34 which is made up of, um, a varied group of folks within the fire department and in the city.
27:42 It includes Captain Joe Colley. He is the chairperson of that committee.
27:46 We also have our three shift mechanics. There's a shift mechanic on each of the, there's A,
27:52 B and C shift. We have a firefighter that's detailed as a mechanic to each of those shifts.
27:58 So they have input. Uh, we also have, um, someone from the EMS side. We have an EMS coordinator
28:04 that provides input mostly on the ambulance purchases, but, uh, he's also a firefighter as
28:11 well. And then we also, um, take into account fleet manager Holman's input as well. Um,
28:19 I'll also go over some quotes that we've gotten and, uh, open up the floor to any questions.
28:24 Good, because I have a couple. I actually, I actually had time to sit down and look at this.
28:29 So I'm looking forward to having this conversation with you.
28:31 Good, good. I knew that you would.
28:33 You know, I, I wanted to know. I wanted to know.
28:37 So this vehicle here, this is engine number four. This is the vehicle that is set to be
28:41 replaced. Uh, we purchased this vehicle in 2005. It was built by the Suffin corporation
28:47 out of Columbus, Ohio. It, uh, it's able to pump 1500 gallons of water per minute.
28:52 It carries its own water supply of 500 gallons. And, um, when this vehicle was purchased,
28:58 just a little background on this vehicle, we were in a different operational model.
29:03 So we had actually two different fire, two separate fire companies at station one on
29:08 Madison. We had a ladder company and an engine company. So this vehicle was set up, uh,
29:13 primarily to just be, um, a pumper truck where it carried hose and water and, uh,
29:20 not as many tools that we needed to carry today. Um, during the pandemic, we wanted,
29:26 we, we kind of saw what was coming, um, that prices were going to increase, that
29:31 supply chain issues were going to happen and that delays were going to come into effect.
29:36 And we decided to put about $30,000 into this vehicle. And what that ended up getting us was
29:44 some upgraded lighting. We replaced the headlights with led lights, some warning
29:49 lights, um, some cosmetic features, uh, such as graphics. Um, but we really wanted to
29:54 primarily focus on the inside of the cab where the firefighters ride. Um, there's been a lot
30:00 of research into cancer prevention in the fire service. And one of the largest contributing
30:06 factors to cancer in the fire service is trapped carcinogens inside the cab of the fire
30:12 engine. So what we ended up doing was we removed almost all of the soft surfaces
30:19 inside the cab that we could, that could trap the carcinogens. The seats were, um,
30:25 one of the biggest ones. So after a fire, the firefighters climb into the vehicle with
30:30 their dirty gear on and the upholstered seats just trap the carcinogens. And every time
30:37 they get up and down out of the seat, it releases them back into the air to where
30:41 they're breathing it in. So what we ended up doing with those seats in that vehicle, um,
30:46 there are, it's almost a vinyl that's impermeable. And when they get dirty,
30:52 we can unzip it, take it off, put a clean one on and throw those in the wash.
30:56 Oh, that's good. That was one of the questions I had.
30:58 Yes, they are, they're, they're a reusable item that we keep. So we have two sets for
31:04 like one for each, two for each seat.
31:07 Very good. The other question I had before you go on is the updates during COVID was that in,
31:12 in 2020? Because I thought I read something that it added 25 years.
31:19 So what we do is we try to keep each fire engine for 25 years. This has been a standard
31:25 practice. It's a industry wide practice. The NFPA recommends that you replace every
31:32 piece of fire apparatus every 25 years. So they recommend that each vehicle spends 15
31:39 years in frontline service and 10 years in reserve service. That way the vehicle is up
31:47 to the standard of the day that the firefighters are riding in. And as long as these vehicles are
31:52 serviceable and safe, then it's okay to keep them. But at 25 years, it's almost a end of
31:58 life time limit. So we did this during COVID to extend it. We didn't know where,
32:07 where the economy was going. We didn't know where society was going. We wanted to
32:12 make sure that we got this vehicle to the 25 years. So that was the intent behind just
32:18 doing some upgrades, making it safer for our firefighters.
32:21 Um, this vehicle would then be disposed of upon delivery of the new vehicle.
32:29 And that new vehicle would end up at station two on our city's west end.
32:33 And when you say disposed of, does that mean that it goes to a volunteer firefighter
32:39 crew somewhere out in the middle of somewhere else?
32:43 It could. We, we have sold a vehicle on, on the used fire apparatus market before.
32:48 Um, you know, we sold it to a department in Kentucky that they couldn't afford something
32:53 brand new. The used fire truck market is, is booming right now. Um, because when I start
33:00 talking about the delays, departments need vehicles now. So they, they purchase a
33:06 used vehicle as almost like a stop gap until that, until that new vehicle shows up.
33:19 So when we built the capital plan, we, um, anticipated a lot of delays. We saw it
33:30 with our previous fire engine purchase. We saw it, we see it with our ambulance
33:34 purchases. Ambulances have a three year wait time from the day you order them.
33:39 Fire apparatus are anywhere from two to five plus years now. So it's very hard
33:45 for municipalities to plan ahead. You know, we just don't know what's going to happen in
33:52 the future. So we have to anticipate those things. Um, currently our capital budget
33:57 request for 2028 is set at 1.5 million for this vehicle. Um, when I initially put this
34:06 number in, I overestimated on purpose and you'll see when we get to the quotes that
34:13 I just barely made it. It was, it was sticker shock for me. Um, it was upsetting for me
34:21 to say the least. Um, I did see that, uh, compared to the last one that we got for 1.1
34:27 million. Exactly. And now it's 1.5 and I'm wondering if by 2028, yeah. Well, so just,
34:36 just for reference, when you, when you sign on the dotted line, you sign the contract,
34:41 that is the price. So that price is 2028's price. Today's price is 2028's price.
34:48 The longer we wait, the more increases are tacked on. Um, there are some clauses in
34:55 contracts that state, um, leave, leave some wiggle room because of tariffs, because of,
35:02 you know, anything, any, there's going to be a bump in the road. There may be something that
35:07 costs a little extra to get next time. So they, they all recommend leave a little wiggle room,
35:14 just so you, you don't have to go back and I don't have to sit here and say,
35:20 I need more, please. After the immense investment that we're about to make.
35:25 There is a controversy. I call it a crisis in the U S fire apparatus industry. So in 2008,
35:32 Wall Street and private equity became involved in the apparatus industry.
35:36 Rev Group was created and they purchased eight different independent manufacturers
35:43 and those included the likes of E1, KME, Ferrara, Spartan, Smeal and Ladder Towers.
35:49 And they consolidated all of those companies into the one Rev Group.
35:54 And currently three manufacturers control 80% of the market share.
35:58 So that, that is one of the items that has really created this dilemma for fire
36:04 departments and municipalities across the nation. Um, the three companies that control
36:10 80% of the market share are Rev Group, Rosenbauer and Pierce. Um, prices have
36:15 since ballooned and delivery times have created unacceptable delays to fire departments
36:19 across the nation. Um, so on September 10th this year, uh, the Senate Homeland Security
36:25 Committee held a hearing with representatives from apparatus manufacturers and American
36:30 fire service leadership and anti-monopoly and antitrust discussion and federal trade
36:35 commission inquiries are underway. Uh, I watched this hearing in its entirety and
36:41 it made me not want to have this meeting because it, knowing that there's fire
36:47 departments out there waiting five plus years for a vehicle that they need yesterday,
36:52 it's, it's pretty troubling. Um, so I mean, there's some root causes to these ballooning
36:59 prices and delays. Uh, the ARPA funding was a big one. We didn't utilize ARPA funding for our,
37:04 our fire apparatus purchases, but many cities did. I know Cleveland was one.
37:10 So all of these orders came in at once and they can only build so many trucks at a time.
37:15 And when the orders just keep coming and keep coming and keep coming,
37:18 the queue gets longer and longer. Uh, supply chain was a big one
37:22 and a shrinking workforce is also one of those.
37:29 All right. So the apparatus committee process, first we sit down and we talk
37:33 about our mission needs. Um, we gather input from the crew that will be getting the vehicle.
37:40 So everyone at fire station number two was asked to come up with a wants and needs list,
37:46 get it to their officer and then submit it to the committee. The committee sits down with
37:52 me and they say, chief, here's, here's what they want. Here's what they need.
37:56 And we kind of go through this list and we determine, okay, here's,
38:00 here's what I need this vehicle to do. I need it to be a needed to pump water.
38:05 I needed to carry different lengths of hose, different sizes of hose. Um, I needed to carry,
38:11 because this is our rescue engine company, I needed to carry extra equipment. So it needs
38:19 to carry the jaws of life, uh, open water rescue equipment, swift water rescue equipment,
38:26 ice rescue equipment, um, high angle, low angle rescue equipment, confined space equipment.
38:33 And I also want to take into account the safety of the firefighters and their health.
38:37 So we need to prevent them from getting cancer as best we can while they're riding inside of the
38:42 vehicle. I want them to be safe when they're traveling. If there's an accident, I want them
38:47 to be able to walk away and come back to work the next shift. And one of our biggest,
38:53 biggest hazards, biggest risks, something that keeps me up at night is them responding to I-90.
38:59 So I'll show you in some of the designs that we received, uh, some ways that we
39:06 can improve their visibility and alert drivers while they're on I-90. Um, we also took into
39:12 account some community initiatives with the climate action plan. We requested an idle reduction
39:18 system on this vehicle. Um, that ranges in price from 15 to $30,000, depending on the
39:27 manufacturer. So, um, I did look into an electric fire truck for Councilman Bullitt.
39:34 The electric fire engine is built by Pierce Manufacturing and Rosenbauer makes one as well.
39:40 The price is double plus the infrastructure. They have to install infrastructure to charge
39:48 the vehicle and that is if our grid can handle it. So, um, while the technology is there,
39:55 I don't feel that Lakewood should be in on the ground level with that.
39:59 I think we should stick with what we know, what works and what is going to be reliable for our
40:05 citizens. Um, so once we gathered the input, determined our mission needs, we contacted
40:12 manufacturers. Um, before you go there, can I ask you just a question about the increased
40:17 visibility on 90 and that's because of distracted drivers or whatever that are
40:22 such a hazardous environment for our firefighters. Um, more firefighters are killed
40:28 or first responders, police involved. Um, more of them are killed on in freeway accidents,
40:36 just working at a scene than anywhere else. So protecting them, increasing our visibility
40:42 while we're there is, is immensely important to me. Um, it's, I guess it would be a
40:50 distracted driver, people driving too, too fast, pass an accident scene. Um, we've had two,
40:56 we had a state trooper and a Cleveland police officer killed in Lakewood on I-90 and we,
41:02 we cover such a small section of that. Um, so I, if I can avoid that
41:08 from here on out, I would retire a happy man.
41:15 And by having this truck, is that just because of the size of it that's going to increase
41:19 the visibility over another truck or? So we, in our design, we requested that
41:28 a light bar be placed across the top of the vehicle in the back and I'll show in the designs.
41:34 It can be used for like a scene light where it's just pure light coming out to light up the
41:42 dark or it can be used as like a traffic arrow. Got it. Okay. With like yellow amber
41:48 lights, warning drivers, they can see it very bright, big red truck.
41:55 Hopefully you can't miss it. Hopefully. Yep. Thank you. I appreciate that.
42:00 So the manufacturers we contacted, uh, were Pierce, um, because of the electric option.
42:07 We contacted Sutfin and we also contacted Seagrave. Um, we do have,
42:13 I'll get to each one, but I'll explain why each one was contacted when I get to their slides.
42:23 They come up with the design. We, we go, we give them, here's our list.
42:28 They come up with the design. They send it to us. They give us a drawing. We're like,
42:32 yeah, take this off. We don't like this. Add this. It's a back and forth process. It takes
42:38 months. Um, we're consistently reviewing these and then going over seeing, okay, well,
42:45 we need to fit this piece of equipment in this compartment. This compartment is
42:49 not big enough. What, what can you do for us? And they, they send it to their engineers and
42:55 they, they send it back to us for review. One of the first quotes we got was from Pierce
43:06 Manufacturing. They've been in the business for quite a while. They're a subsidiary of Oshkosh
43:11 and they're located in Wisconsin. They have a local service center in Macedonia.
43:16 We currently have one Pierce fire engine. We purchased that vehicle during the pandemic to
43:22 replace an aging out heavy rescue vehicle. We purchased it used from a department in Texas,
43:29 no road salt in Texas. So the underside, the meat and potatoes of this vehicle were sound.
43:36 Um, we purchased that vehicle for $285,000 and we received a trade in of 35,000 on the former heavy
43:46 rescue. Um, this vehicle is due for refurbishment so we can extend that usable life so it can
43:53 continue to serve us in Lakewood. And what year is that truck? That is a 2010. So by,
44:02 by refer, there's two levels of refurbishment. There's a level one and a level two.
44:09 The level that we were going to go to with this vehicle would essentially reset the clock.
44:20 So here is our design from Pierce. Um, so as you can see along the top of the back of the
44:30 truck up, up here, you can see these little, these dots along the top. Yeah. So that is the,
44:39 that is the light. It can, it'll either be a floodlight or an arrow. So we can turn that on
44:47 and warn drivers that are coming towards us. Or if we're on a side street and it's in the
44:52 middle of the night, we can just turn the floodlight on and we've lit, we've lit up the
44:55 whole scene. Um, when we sent out our request to the manufacturers, we asked, we wanted to compare
45:03 apples to apples or, you know, Macintosh to pink ladies. So we asked for the same size motor,
45:11 the same transmission, the same size pump, the same size water tank,
45:15 the same amount of seats in the cab for the firefighters, the same ground ladders,
45:20 the same amount of hose that we're to carry. So we wanted everything to be as similar as possible
45:27 so we could gauge an accurate, just get us an accurate number and really do the apples
45:34 to apples comparison. Um, one thing that we requested of all of our manufacturers was to
45:40 have a stainless steel body. We've noticed that over the years, um, the bodies on the
45:46 fire engines start to corrode and the paint peels, then we have problems with the undercarriage,
45:52 the frame. So we wanted to protect the vehicle so we could get the maximum life out of them.
45:58 We understand that this is an enormous investment for our citizens and we want this truck to be
46:03 able to be around for the 25 years so we get our, our money's worth out of it.
46:09 Um, this vehicle, the price that we received from Pierce was 1,437,620.
46:18 Unfortunately, the build time is a 48 to 51 month build time, which does not work on our timeline.
46:27 Included in this price would be two trips to Wisconsin for the apparatus committee to do
46:32 a pre-construction meeting and an acceptance inspection at the end. So we would, we would
46:37 only be able to go up, we, we would only be able to go up there, um, in the beginning,
46:43 when they, before they start building it and when it's finally all done.
46:50 Our next manufacturer was Sutfin. They've been around since 1890. They are a family-owned
46:56 company. They have five generations of Sutfin's working in the plant and the company.
47:02 It's located in Columbus, Ohio. They have local service available. They have a mobile technician
47:08 that shows up at our fire stations. We give them a call. We say, hey, this isn't working or
47:14 something is broken. They are, they come to us. We don't have to send the truck anywhere
47:19 and unless it's a major component, it can be fixed here in Lakewood and it's back on the
47:24 road and in a short amount of time. If it's a major component issue, they can drive it down
47:31 to Columbus and fix it in the factory.
47:36 We currently have two Sutfin apparatus. Uh, engine number four is one of them.
47:41 And then the second is engine number three, which was delivered in 2024. We ordered that
47:47 in 2022. It's at station number three on Clifton Boulevard and it is a quint apparatus,
47:53 which means it, it pumps water, carries water, carries hose, carries ground ladders and
47:59 is equipped with an aerial ladder. And, uh, like you mentioned, it was purchased for 1.1 million.
48:08 Here's the design we received from Sutfin. Um,
48:14 see if I can show up at the top, this grid up here is that light
48:20 that we talked about. Um, we also added, uh, some compartment space.
48:28 We want, we want to take all the tools out of the cab, all of the,
48:34 all of our brake stuff tools. Um, if they were ever involved in an accident,
48:38 I don't want flying projectiles going through the cab at my firefighters. Um, it'll also
48:45 help keep the cab cleaner. Uh, so they would just step out of the vehicle,
48:49 open up one of those compartments and their tools would be right inside,
48:52 right outside their door. Uh, we also wanted to consider the fact that we are an all hazards
49:00 department. The fire service is ever changing. Tomorrow we could be required to, to handle
49:05 some other type of emergency or, or hazard that comes down the road and mitigate those
49:11 risks. So when we designed this vehicle, we wanted to leave, we wanted to be able to store
49:16 everything that the current vehicle already does and leave about 20% room for growth.
49:22 This is a 25 year vehicle. We want it to be able to serve us well into the future.
49:31 Price for this vehicle was $1,460,860. Uh, build time is 28 to 30 months.
49:39 Uh, there are unlimited trips to the factory for pre-construction acceptance testing and
49:44 mid-build inspections. We just have to phone ahead and that would be it. So the, uh,
49:50 idle reduction system is $32,300 on this. Essentially what they do is they insert,
49:59 uh, two lithium ion batteries. So if the vehicle is sitting on a side street and
50:06 it's not operating as in like, it's not pumping water, the vehicle will turn the motor off and
50:13 run off the battery. So there's no emissions. And once, once the battery level got to a certain
50:20 point, the engine would kick back on to recharge the batteries.
50:23 And is that cost included in that 1.46? Yes, it is.
50:27 Yeah. Our last manufacturer that we reached out to was Seagrave. Seagrave has been around
50:38 even longer, 1881. They're family owned. They're also in Wisconsin, but their service center is
50:44 located in Kentucky. Uh, they don't have a huge presence here in Northeast Ohio. Uh, they
50:50 are the, the premier builder of fire trucks for New York City. Uh, if, if New York City
50:57 swears by them, I'm going to take their word for it. Um, they've built so many vehicles for
51:03 them. I, they've been using them for over 30 years. Uh, we have never owned a Seagrave
51:09 fire apparatus and Cleveland Heights is the only one in Northeast Ohio that we know of.
51:15 They do have an excellent reputation for building durable and high quality fire engines.
51:19 Um, we made contact with them numerous times. Um, I don't know if we're just small potatoes to them,
51:30 but, uh, it took them until this morning to get me a quote and we started reaching out
51:36 at the end of April. So we gave them the exact same specifications, say the same
51:43 requirements. And that quote came in at, uh, 1.35 to 1.45 million. So it's right in, right in
51:52 where everyone else is falling in line. Uh, they have a 50 month build time. So again,
51:58 not great. It doesn't meet our timeline. Uh, and I'm still, so the process that we've
52:04 already done with the other two manufacturers of the back and forth, the tweaking of,
52:08 of the design still has to happen. Um, I was, I was a little bit disappointed that they,
52:15 they couldn't come through for us in a more timely fashion knowing the great reputation
52:21 that they have. So that is essentially the process and, and how we are, you know,
52:33 trying to make this decision. Um, I guess at this point, any questions, any concerns?
52:46 Yeah, thank you, chair. And thank you, chief, um, for the thorough presentation. Um,
52:51 you know, obviously council is going to do what we, um, need to do to support,
52:56 uh, the men and women in the fire service. Uh, from a process standpoint, this might be a
53:03 director Mahoney question, but you know, you lay it out 2028 is the capital plan year.
53:08 I do remember with, I think the one we got in 2024, it required like a sizable down payment.
53:14 So I like, what does council approval look like in this sense? Is it like we approve
53:18 a capital plan and we, these are estimates you're giving us. You're trying to stay in
53:22 front of it so that, you know, when we see it in the budget, it's not a surprise.
53:26 Is that kind of the intention here? Yes, it is. Uh, previous with the previous vehicle,
53:31 that vehicle came out of turn. We were in a situation where, uh, the truck that it replaced
53:38 was failing. Uh, it needed a lot of work. It was out of service for a year. Uh, that's
53:44 another issue that we have is getting parts for older vehicles and the downtime is really
53:50 what grinds us to a halt. Um, we, we need to be ready 24 seven. When, when I have a
53:57 vehicle that goes out of service, I need something to take its place instantly.
54:01 I need no interruptions in our service to the community. So keeping on top of our capital
54:06 purchases helps us with that. And when we have to drag things out, um, and, and
54:12 source parts, getting service, getting reliable service and quick service from,
54:18 from these manufacturers is probably our top priority. Uh, we have a couple of vehicles
54:25 now that we need parts. We can't get anybody on the phone. We need to use a portal.
54:31 We need to do this. And then the parts show up and it's not the right part.
54:34 And it's weeks and weeks and weeks that this vehicle is sitting idle, that we can't
54:38 use it. So, um, essentially that, that the vehicle we purchased previously needed
54:46 council approval to earmark that money outside of the capital budget at that time,
54:52 just so we could place the order, get it going. Um, I don't believe that this,
54:59 because it's not out of turn, because it's already in the capital plan.
55:03 I don't believe that there's going to be much that's going to be needed
55:06 for that. I just wanted to be here to present this. So everyone is aware that,
55:12 Hey, this is coming. This is, this is how we do it. Um, once the order is placed,
55:18 the payment. So it was a little different for Pierce and Sutfin payment is due on
55:25 delivery. There are prepayment discounts. If we as a city decide let's pay for it up front,
55:32 we can save 5%. Um, Seagrave a little bit different. They want five installments.
55:37 They want 25% to get started. 25% once the chassis built, 25%, 20% and then 5% when it
55:46 shows up in Lakewood. Um, so that, that's an option as well. Um, I just, Director Mahoney
55:54 would have to be the one to make that call. So I leave the, I leave the numbers up to her
56:00 as far as, I mean, I'm just here to tell you what fire truck we want. Um, so yeah.
56:09 Thank you. And I think what we can all agree on is that private equity ruins everything.
56:13 And it's, it's interesting that they realize the market that they can get 80% of the share of,
56:18 and then just chop it for pieces. And then, cause I, you know, but part of that is
56:22 they're smart enough to know that if they make it hard for you to get parts,
56:26 then it makes you want to get a new truck. Yeah. Planned obsolescence.
56:29 Yes. Um, so that's interesting, but I, I, you know, uh, I thank you for the thorough
56:34 presentation. I think you kind of went through, um, the current truck and you know,
56:39 it's been refurbished a little, but, um, you know, it's all about having a plan and not letting the
56:45 plan work you. And so I appreciate your kind of thoughtfulness and bringing it in front of us
56:49 early so that there's no surprises. Um, that's all I have. Thank you.
56:54 Okay. Thank you. Any other questions? Councilman, Councilwoman Merckx.
56:58 Thank you. This isn't a question. It's a comment. Thanks for the thorough explanation.
57:03 I mean, I, I, I'm all in favor of you having the equipment that you need to do your job
57:08 because you guys work hard and really, um, take care of us in the city. So thank you for explaining
57:14 this and, um, can't imagine stainless steel undercarriage. Got to add to the expense,
57:20 but I'm sure in the long run, it cuts down on a lot of the maintenance,
57:24 but thank you for the thorough explanation. Thank you.
57:28 Thank you, chief. I appreciate, um, all your work on this and,
57:32 and keeping us up to date and answering all my questions. Thank you.
57:35 Without any further questions, uh, from the committee, I will make a motion to receive
57:39 and file this presentation. Second.
57:42 Motion's been made and seconded. All in favor?
57:45 Aye. And without, uh, further comment or business, this meeting is adjourned.