Written by the reviewer from the ASR + docket; [verbatim-ASR] = quoted machine transcript; [paraphrase] = reviewer's wording, not a quote.
0:00 All right we will go ahead and call committee to hold order and first move to approve the
0:10 minutes of the October 13th meeting without the necessity of a reading.
0:15 Motion has been made and seconded.
0:17 Hearing none all those in favor aye and that motion passes.
0:22 Okay so our main item on the docket tonight welcome is the communication for me about
0:30 updating about the City Hall space concerns and just to give us a little refresher on that.
0:40 So this has been a sort of ongoing discussion we know at the sort of around this time December
0:48 last year the mayor and I did a communication about the space study and acknowledging the
0:54 challenges of the space issues here at City Hall particularly as it relates to the
0:58 police department and particularly the female police locker rooms but generally the police
1:02 department and then we've been through a few different explorations where we are now
1:09 is since we had the recommendation from the administration to purchase the Warren Road
1:14 building as we were considering that potential possibility we also wanted to do all the
1:21 due diligence on the various possible options as well as the potential costs and benefits
1:28 of doing that Warren Road purchase and rehabilitation.
1:35 So since that time Vice President Baker Councilman Evans and myself have formed
1:41 a working group working with the planning department and the administration to go through
1:46 some of the questions that council members had been asking in terms of what are the
1:51 possible options to solve the space issues how much would each option potentially cost
1:56 what are the operational and customer service pros and cons of each.
2:00 So as we've worked through that we sort of narrowed those down into essentially
2:07 three options of course there are many more options than that but just to have
2:11 a digestible conversation and kind of get our heads around this issue we sort of centered around
2:16 three specific options so how could in addition be built onto the current City Hall of sufficient
2:25 size to address the space issues and how much would that cost how much would it cost to fully
2:30 gut and renovate the Warren Road building and retrofit the current City Hall into a justice
2:35 center and then some of the other questions we also had the option of doing the small edition
2:44 which was originally presented as an option as well that would just specifically address
2:48 some of the police issues but not a lot of the other issues and then some of the
2:53 other questions we had were how do the City Hall improvements previously laid out
2:58 in the five-year capital plan for example the window replacements fit into the overall
3:03 budget and timing of the proposed project options and what are the ongoing operational
3:08 costs and the customer service and efficiency pros and cons of each.
3:12 So since that time we've been working with our consultants from Weber Murphy Fox so we're
3:19 joined by David Thal from Weber Murphy Fox tonight as well as our PMC consultants so we
3:26 have Chris Panichy and Ken Kowalczyk we were very familiar with Ken of course from PMC here to kind
3:36 of help us through some of those explorations they've prepared a presentation to walk us
3:42 through each of those so before I jump over to them Vice President Baker or Councilman
3:48 Evans do you have anything to add that I've left out there.
3:51 Thank you President Keppel and the only thing I'd add is that you know as we talked about earlier
4:00 when you know the shared priorities of Space City Hall finding extra space for the police
4:06 department to meet the modern 21st century policing but these I want to caution folks
4:13 as we go through these and I'm sure our consultants will help reiterate this point
4:18 this is not like this is what a detailed cost would be these are scale costs so that we understand
4:23 kind of like orders of magnitude if we pick one route what it likely might be but there's not a
4:29 lot of detail on the bone to then provide that estimate so it's very conceptual I'm sure they
4:33 will say that but I just want to share with my colleagues in the public that it is very
4:37 conceptual. Yes thank you that's a good point we're just trying to get to the point where
4:41 we had sort of apples-to-apples comparisons of the three options so all kind of at the
4:47 same high level conceptual and we'll probably say those words repeatedly tonight so okay any
4:53 other comments no colleagues all right so I'll turn it over to Chris and David
5:03 you push the button it should turn red and then we should hear you okay there we go perfect
5:09 it's a faint red so good evening everyone my name is Chris Panicki I am with PMC I just
5:14 wanted to do a quick introduction and then kind of give a little background on myself I've been
5:18 with PMC about almost a year and a half now a little more prior to that I ran the cap work
5:24 at Case Western Reserve University for about 10 years so I have a lot of capital work experience
5:28 from brand new buildings to a lot of existing buildings on campus and then prior to that I
5:33 I was in practice for 20 so I've worked on a lot of higher education as well as k-12 and
5:40 government work so first thing we want to do is go through the plans and David's going to take
5:46 us through those tonight then we're going to talk a little bit about these conceptual project
5:49 estimates and how we develop them Ken's going to work us through the some of the finance of the
5:54 key tax pieces and then we're going to wrap it all up so that's kind of our agenda tonight
5:59 and with that David great thank you thanks for having us tonight um should we switch to the
6:06 next slide okay great so I'm going to um as Chris mentioned just um do an overview of of
6:13 the three options that are being presented today and option one is um what where we started was
6:21 we we looked at every department uh in the building in fact it was called a space
6:26 utilization study uh we walked all 70,000 square feet of the of the city documented it
6:34 to them be able to provide digital plans to them work from uh worked with all the department
6:40 heads to to uh look at the needs the desires and to see where we might be able to be more
6:47 effective within the space of the building and so that's where this came about um and and while
6:54 it has all the departments in their associated color blocking forms uh there are some
7:00 limitations in terms of growth we did add a very small addition that would be to the east
7:07 and that's on the the rear side there that you you see that little rectangle that comes out it
7:12 basically fills what's existing parking along the east side there and that then helped with
7:19 some of the police department's locker room reconfigurations and allowing for a little bit
7:25 more expansive on on the one of the floors for more office space and then possible more
7:32 meeting room space up here and that's where we landed here we we were asked to look at
7:39 another scheme which if we go to the the next slide this option begins to look at a much
7:47 larger addition an addition that would bring the police department to a square footage
7:55 that made sense for expansion and growth and i believe there's one other slide four option
8:02 there we go and then all the other departments um this plan is showing the second floor where
8:09 planning and development and building and housing which are down on the the lower level
8:14 would come up to the second floor and then the police would then grow into the the addition
8:21 on the other two floors so that's this was option two with the large addition that
8:28 this is towards the east but it's on the front of the building and it's not quite a
8:32 zero lot line it pretty much terminated just before the the tree the tree line
8:40 this option three to do the what was mentioned in apples to apples comparison was also to look
8:46 at the departments of that would that would be relocated as proposed to going to the warn road
8:52 building doing a test you know a blocking diagram similar to some of the other schemes
8:59 here in this building and this is just a again high level the departments might go here they
9:06 might be in other areas but really it was about looking at the floor plates what exists
9:12 what what might work within the existing building renovation
9:17 and where a possible new addition might need to be added in order to really fit all the
9:22 program and the modern needs of accessibility so elevator scare and some other programs
9:29 and i believe the next slide this shows the areas that are not in color are the areas of
9:36 the departments that are proposed to to move to warn road and then these are the areas in
9:42 which the police department would grow into and in one of our former studies
9:49 where we showed how the police department would would grow into this was one of the schemes
9:54 it's it's not this but it basically takes the area that are not colored and they become blue
10:05 okay thanks thanks you're welcome so what you're seeing in front of you are three conceptual
10:11 project estimates so it's a project estimate includes construction cost as well as all the
10:17 soft costs so anything that would involve in that project soup to nuts but they are very
10:21 high level this is a parametric at best so it could swing 10 to 15 percent depending on
10:28 scope as well as market conditions so we're really out of them we're going to keep saying
10:32 that tonight so people want to you know reiterating that so the first um and they're
10:37 also based on a mixture of three things weber murphy fox and their they have in-house
10:42 construction management group so they provided the construction cost estimate
10:47 then we layered in pmc we layered in soft cost pieces and then there's this third bucket
10:54 including city projects that were ongoing or ones that were planned so that's what you're
11:00 going to see here and i'll go through the first option one and then you'll see how it works
11:03 with option two and three so option one we're renovating city hall with a small annex addition
11:10 or small addition in an annex renovation about 12.8 million for hard construction costs
11:16 any services if they're around 10 would be about 1.2 million ff and e you describe
11:21 what any services mean for everyone oh sorry sorry yes the public you're right you're right
11:27 sorry councilman thank you so any architectural engineering surfaces those are so with anything
11:33 that would be required to facilitate the design for um for the building so all your
11:39 mechanical your electrical your plumbing your technology those are structures so that's what
11:45 David works on so that's what any service are so ff and e is your furniture pictures
11:53 and your equipment if you take the building turn up shake it down everything that falls out of
11:57 it it's a good way to say you have what ff and e is you know depending if you get new
12:01 furniture use some of the existing that number could change a bit but it was estimated at
12:06 1.4 million by your team and then the next one is really it's one of those ones that
12:11 people don't want to admit it's needed it's a construction owner construction contingency
12:16 and what are these for these are for the unknowns sometimes there's the only the own
12:20 known unknowns but these are truly the unknowns the stuff behind the walls you can't see
12:24 the stuff that are going to hit that the contractor is not going to be responsible for
12:27 that hits projects and having worked on so many projects on an old buildings you're always
12:33 going to find something so really you want to be you want to preserve money in your budget
12:38 for when those things happen and of course there's always those things you forget about
12:42 as you're going through the course of design you might find out after when you're construction
12:46 i really like to do this and we're in here right now or someone changes in administration
12:50 things it's always happened it always happens it comes up so that's what the owner's contingency
12:55 is for there are other contingencies that are baked into the construction cost
12:59 there's design and bidding condition contingencies there's escalation contingencies those are all
13:04 lumped up right now in the 12.8 million which david's firm has accounted for again very high
13:10 level and then the next item would be additional soft costs things that again people don't think
13:16 about moving utilities legal work technology you can see there's a lot of robust technology
13:22 in here they have this stuff either transferred or bought new would be a lot of money testing
13:27 you have to test if it's a new building you're testing all your structure you're
13:30 testing your foundations insurance you're going to carry your own insurance builder's risk
13:35 or you're going to put it on the contractor all those things you have to think through
13:39 that could be a lot of money sometimes you'll have in this case you're a city group maybe you
13:45 have to pay for permits maybe you won't maybe you'll depending on that works you want to
13:49 charge yourself i've seen i've seen cities do that so i mean that's all part of the project
13:55 cost right then you get down to there's three we identified that we know about there's probably
14:01 a fourth one that i'm not sure the boiler is where that sits but one is the elevator project
14:06 that was estimated at a million dollars the wayfinding project was 170 000 and then the window
14:13 replacement which we bumped up a little bit it was a little less it was less than it was like
14:17 2.5 i think so we put it at 2.7 million because i think it was a few years ago
14:22 so your window replacement for the whole whole facility that means our original window so
14:28 we came up with a grand total for this option one at 21.4 million
14:33 and that does not include renovation to the existing jail or support spaces that wasn't part
14:39 of this so i just want to make sure that that's known when you're putting here that's
14:43 still out there that hasn't um was not put in this cost figure any questions on one or you
14:49 want me to go through all three of them and then are there any questions i just i had a question on
14:54 the um the owner's contingency did you use us is there is it a similar percentage for each
15:03 of these how does that that's a great question and um in a renovation of this nature
15:09 old buildings we like to carry at least 10 it could even get greater it may sound like
15:16 it's inverse but the less you're doing the more unknown you're getting into so if i were taking
15:20 a building down and i would do a gut renovation then it found a structure you still would need
15:25 some but it's like you can probably back that down a little bit because you're removing all
15:31 your all your unknowns depending on how at what point in time you um you put that into the
15:39 let's say you'd have to gut it before you entered the contract but
15:44 10 is usually what we hold for these type of things i'm again i don't want to get into
15:49 in depth on it but you can definitely spend it sorry council member steven thank you i'm just
15:58 i'm a little confused at the numbers here because it's not quite matching up
16:02 so i see the construction cost and that's 12.8 the a and e service is 1.2
16:11 ffe is 1.4 the owner contingency and then it goes on with that next phrase in parentheses
16:20 is that the 1.2 and then the other soft cost or is that all part of one thing there
16:26 and then does the legal technology testing match up with the 642 can you explain which these are
16:35 all in separate numbers um i think the math would be correct oh you're not seeing the line
16:41 there should be a line between um owner's contingency and other soft cost okay so other
16:47 soft cost is where that 642 is is that right yes correct other soft cost moving utilities
16:58 legal technology testing insurance avian art end of parentheses maybe there should be
17:06 to explain that phrase thank you so then that is the 642 correct thank you very much
17:14 are there council members questions before we go on members of the administration no okay take it away
17:23 okay so option number two as a renovation of city hall with a larger addition so you're
17:30 renovating 53.9 thousands gross square feet with light to moderate renovation i think as
17:37 david alluded to that would be you're not completely gutting it you're doing finishes
17:42 in certain areas maybe ceilings maybe lighting some rooms would might get just paint that when
17:47 they were figuring out it was it was kind of a blend a blend a blend so it gets to that
17:53 we're starting in that middle point and so the cost for that was a 20 million 20.5 million
18:02 to do that work the renovation plus also renovating the annex
18:06 any services again 10 percent of that work ff and e 1.4 million we just carry the number
18:14 again this is high level you could debate on whether or not it should be a little higher
18:17 because it's a little greater space but we just carry the number the owner's contingency again
18:23 10 percent so that would be 2 million dollars soft cost would be a little larger because it's a
18:28 bigger space so even though it's actually so that's one point yeah one million and then
18:35 the three projects the elevator the wayfinding and the window the one project like i said i
18:41 mentioned before that's not in here are the boilers when i walk through the building i know
18:45 you're doing the boiler project but i don't know what's that's worth and when that's going
18:49 to be done that might be done even before i don't know what the timeline that is
18:54 does anybody know no idea you've got a great old boiler those things are workhorses they may
19:01 it's the original one but they're not efficient and it's be honest it's useful life but it
19:04 definitely by the way this building is extremely well maintained so hats off to the person who
19:10 does it just walking around in it just did a great job i've walked a lot of buildings this
19:15 one is really well maintained so i want to state that that's my book thank you for the
19:22 presentation and just a quick terminology clarification so the top of option two first
19:28 of all gsf what's g what's the g part gross gross gross square feet how's that different than
19:33 square feet it's just same same deal okay net and gross gross is if you were to draw a line
19:39 throughout the whole building around the whole building just it was because we didn't have
19:43 all the specific numbers okay and net would be net spaces less the walls okay right so this
19:50 is rough cut and not walking around with a measuring tape secondly
19:59 light to moderate means means what a blend so because it's very high level when talking to
20:06 david we were going through the very spaces i go what about this one he's like well that
20:10 one probably a little bit more because we're removing walls so then now you're removing
20:14 walls so now you're touching ceilings you're touching all the floors you're basically that
20:17 one's a little heavier this room this one room might be just used as is so it might be just
20:22 paint carpet but they've yeah so so there are areas that we had investigated that obviously
20:29 would need maybe more minor renovation maybe moderate and more major more major i would say
20:38 in some of the police area where the locker rooms and showers you have plumbing fixtures
20:42 you have mechanical you have a lot of it that would be more major in the say the lower level
20:49 where where housing and planning and development are maybe it's okay to kind of slip in and
20:56 grow into it as is maybe refresh the lighting maybe refresh the finishes but in terms of
21:03 there's a balance of private offices and open space and maybe that would be perfect for
21:07 some of the expansion that would be needed that would be more minor so um you know when
21:13 we were looking at at these high level numbers you know we were looking at about a hundred
21:18 dollars a square foot for for more minor 150 for moderate and 200 for major okay that's
21:25 helpful so you're you're classing you're you're establishing broad buckets and making
21:31 broad estimates and then it seems the cost driver is the total square foot gross square footage
21:37 in each between at least one and two option one and two right that's the driver here is
21:42 right and and with two there's a larger new addition so it's a it's an addition that you
21:51 is going to part of its underground there's some earth work that needs to be moved you
21:58 know so it's it's a all of that was figured well and if i'm following correctly there should be
22:05 little to no owner's contingency for the new unless we think of the lakewood hospital site
22:11 where we did find underground soil issues you know because it's okay it's new and you're
22:17 hold my fire now okay thank you got it okay thanks
22:27 okay all right i'll continue then so an option three um is probably is the largest of of the
22:32 three options uh at uh 33,000 square foot of warn road site the existing board of education
22:40 building or the old board of education building renovating that building so what we thought in
22:46 that building it's it's a complete got renovation it's a hundred year old structure there's a lot
22:51 of work to be done on it we're looking at 17.5 million in construction costs the property costs
22:58 which we did put in here were less the sale of the annex building so it was a guesstimate
23:05 we understood it was about 1.5 to purchase and maybe you'd get a half a million to
23:09 sell the annex those numbers could be off but we put a placeholder in there so people
23:14 understand that it's part of the equation any services again at 10 1.7 million ff and e
23:21 back that down a little bit at 1.2 million because we still have the city hall renovation
23:27 below as you'll see and then owners contingency still keeping it high even though they're
23:32 doing a gut renovation for several reasons we still don't know what's going on with the
23:36 foundation there's water leaking in the building once we take all the stuff take the
23:42 plaster and drywall off we want to see what the structure looks like is there water mitigated
23:47 through there is there structure we have to replace there's just a lot of unknowns in a
23:51 hundred year old building so we want to we'd like to keep that contingency high for that
23:58 reason and then soft cost having the same soft cost applied in this project as well for a
24:05 total of 24.1 million for the one road moving the city hall so in this case city hall would
24:13 not get an addition use the building as is as the square footage to 53.9 thousand gross
24:21 square feet renovating it on a lighter scale because we're not going to be doing as much
24:27 we're not having the addition so that was around 8.1 million any services for that
24:32 portion of work would be about 800,000 ff and e we still kept high because we didn't know if
24:38 you'd still be buying all new furniture because this is one of those ones there's equity if
24:42 if you renovate a portion of it and only you know not everybody gets new furniture how would
24:46 you want to approach it again that can go up and down this is parametric so we you know
24:50 we're trying to we're just shooting in dark here you know you're trying to hit it in the
24:54 middle and it could be lower it could be higher by 10 percent
25:02 and then owner's contingency at around 800,000 and then soft cost 400,000 and then the three
25:11 respective projects that we've talked about before with a total of 15.5 million
25:19 taking both of those projects into consideration adding them up at 39.7 million so i went through
25:26 that quickly are there any questions on option three well how we derive the numbers
25:39 that's member steven thank you
25:42 um i know you were talking about owner contingency here and i'm just curious about
25:50 the comparisons with options two and three and why there's such a difference there it would
25:57 seem like if you're doing light to moderate building renovations in both of these places
26:02 that what you would discover in one situation would be the same thing that you would discover
26:07 in the other situation so you're saying option two if i'm reading correctly option two
26:14 and the second part of option three in comparison yes or the aggregate of three
26:20 the second part of three right so it's a difference of of um one million versus
26:25 816 well i think it's two right and option number two i'm sorry i'm sorry two right
26:33 because it's right and then half of that because we did a that's a great that's a great question so
26:37 that was 10 maybe actually that should be a little higher um an option number two should be lower
26:45 option two maybe i'm not sure how you came up to your number i'm just 10 10
26:51 10 of the construction okay that's quite a difference yeah okay thank you and again it was
26:57 option two was a little more aggressive because you would be moving more walls option three you
27:03 have a lot of room so that the thought was they would be utilizing their rooms as is
27:08 probably not the most efficient but you can keep the walls in place so you're not opening
27:13 the walls you're not experiencing a lot of unknowns so it was like it's a guesstimate
27:17 at this point because you're at this parametric level thank you that's my bullet
27:22 um to to follow on this councilman strebek i think also the difference between option two
27:27 and three is that option two proposes a new addition of square footage and annex renovation
27:34 and i think option three does does not do either of those things that's correct so more
27:39 is going on for option two that's driving the present city hall cost estimates higher
27:47 okay yeah thank you if i may add to that briefly the total contingency for option three is around
27:52 two and a half million around two and a half million if you add them both you add i see
27:58 yeah so so that's probably the better comparison between option two and option three is the two
28:03 and a half to two thank you other questions from council members where we are so far
28:11 dr bangton thank you president couple just a couple quick questions um as i'm trying to take
28:17 notes on everything here um i was wondering what number per square foot was used for new
28:23 construction to start with
28:30 for option one well if they're different throughout um i i i assumed maybe it was the
28:37 same number used for new construction on all three but if they're different i think the front
28:42 addition would be more expensive because of the um the amount of soil that would need to be removed
28:48 but do you have any of those numbers so maybe i'll just say my questions and then you can
28:53 look into it um so that was one and then the um the second was um what did you use for the
29:01 so there was low mod high 100 150 200 so looking for the new construction um and then
29:07 what number did you use for square foot for the renovation of warn road and then the last
29:12 question was comparing the raw construction numbers um that were originally provided from
29:19 your firm on these options the raw construction number on these are higher so i wondered if
29:25 there was um a reason that you could explain um that it's higher so i could yes um i can
29:35 speak to where we came up with the existing building renovation for warn road and how that's
29:44 different from this building was that one of the questions no no i'm sorry that that wasn't
29:50 one of the questions okay so the first one was just what so warn road what what number did
29:56 you use for renovation for square foot for warn road and then second was what number did
30:02 you use for new construction for the additions on the additions on city hall existing city hall
30:09 and then third comparing the estimates from your firm for these options the hard hard cost the
30:17 hard construction costs were less on the first um estimates that you provided than this so i
30:23 wondered what the difference was why they're higher now and that's that's just for the
30:28 hard cost i understand that we included you included in this one the elevator project
30:33 well the elevator wasn't but the windows weren't in so that increased the total cost but i'm just
30:38 i'm just looking at that base construction cost and why that's higher now
30:46 okay so i can speak to um option one the addition we were looking at around 440 square foot
31:01 renovations were for um city hall word around that 150 which is what we thought would be
31:09 of that blended cost between minor moderate and major 150 and the annex ended up being around
31:16 167 so still within that that range so that was option one option two
31:33 we this is the new front edition we had that at around 500 square foot 495
31:47 and the same numbers for the renovation that blended rate of around 150 square foot so that
31:55 was option one and option two um the new construction for three was rated around 500
32:07 and that's that's where we proposed and again that was our look at the blocking diagram
32:15 and felt that you needed a new small new addition even on the worn road to have the lobby the
32:24 security elevator new fire stair and so that was around that 500 square foot so those are the
32:33 the new renovation costs the new building renovation costs and then the the building
32:39 renovation costs or options one and two for option three the worn road we had that
32:50 which i don't think that was one of your questions that was at that more major
32:53 renovation cost and we had that as a range but the last one of your questions i think that you
32:59 hit is option two the construction cost at 20.5 million it's 17 million for higher plus
33:05 the contingencies and escalation that we have built in their number which comes up to 20 million
33:10 500 so it's 17 084 025 plus 3416 805 805 that's how we developed the 20 million
33:25 so we thank you through president maybe this we could just sit down and this is not for
33:29 tonight yeah yeah we can go through it but i i still have just a couple of questions
33:33 sure sure absolutely not not tonight on the floor thank you thank you and again not to
33:41 keep driving home the high level conceptual nature of these numbers but um you know as
33:46 we're trying to imagine an addition that's a blank box and placing things wherever but
33:52 just trying to get a sense of the scale of each of these projects and what we might be
33:56 looking at and i think you maybe you did mention him for i'm again sending it to
34:00 we tried to one of the goals of this thing this exercise was to make an equal look at all three
34:06 options so one wasn't weighted heavier the other or had more investigated than the other because
34:10 then it's it's not a fair comparison i think one of the charges you gave us is like we
34:14 really want to understand these things the three apples here you know what we have to
34:17 deal with even though they're they are different in cost so one's more expensive you know one's
34:22 an apple honey crisp and the other ones or whatever fuji but um you know using those food
34:27 analogies but that's what the goal of this was so i just want to make sure that
34:32 people understand it was kind of an even approach to all of them
34:36 and correct me if i'm wrong the with the option three part of the construction cost was also
34:41 the need for the additional driveway and those kinds of things or is that part of that per
34:47 square foot cost you mean as far as warren goes as far as warren road yeah we took uh when
34:53 we sat down looked at it wasn't just the building it was site development cost how are we going to
34:57 have a new approach to city hall what we're going to do with parking everything from
35:03 mechanicals where the mechanics would probably go is your initial structure needed for that
35:07 they're going to go up top on the side is there going to be a generator where would that
35:10 be located you start to get in just start thinking conceptually how all these costs can
35:14 really add up because right now you have a generator for this building that does everything
35:20 but the elevators and the chillers but it handles all the rest are you going to do that
35:25 same thing there or do you want to have a full generation that's just a question on the road
35:30 that's how prices can go up and down right if you keep asking questions and you keep
35:35 saying how do you what do you want to design
35:41 but a couple more clarifying questions so the
35:45 uh the needs that you just named that uh the chair just named they're found where
35:52 where do you group the driveway and paving and parking costs in which category so in
35:59 in our budget we included we we had identified um or it was identified together that there
36:05 needed to be a new drive and um and parking from warren road and that got included in the
36:12 the new dollar so that's just in construction that's part of um sorry not the new but in the
36:20 as part of sorry not part of the new construction of the new edition but as part of the
36:26 what we're calling the warn road existing building
36:29 wonderful and then thank you for that sorry to interrupt the method methodology question these
36:35 are 2025 dollars presumably so we included through 2026 right we accounted for
36:46 escalation through 2026 all right so kind of cost of living increased equivalency
36:53 in expenses increases you calculate your best guess at inflation
36:58 um and bake that into these numbers through vital quarter or five percent five percent
37:06 so historically historically before we had this big last few years when market went crazy you
37:11 could have always assumed four percent some years it was two some years it was three
37:16 but over the time historically you could say four percent now the last few years when we had
37:22 crazy eight or nine percent it changed the whole game it changed the whole model um we're
37:27 seeing construction prices still in that four or five for next quarter they're still going up
37:31 steel's going up copper's going up aluminum's following that parody because they figure if
37:37 copper goes higher soaking aluminum so that changes all your wiring you want to go from
37:42 copper to aluminum all those things add and then of course the tariff world that's another
37:49 now um any option one two or three is not expected to be permitted contracted developed
38:00 install you know commenced and then we're not cutting the ribbon by 12 months from now on any
38:05 of these options right so how does any of us estimate this a two-year project a three-year
38:13 project how do you control for that or is that am i still on the show
38:19 we'll have a summation slide and and it's our best gas very good questions and uh we're
38:24 gonna get into them it's an aggressive best guess you'll that's our last slide so yeah
38:29 any more questions on these or we can
38:36 and i think you're on the next slide and next slide please um council good to see you
38:40 thanks for having us tonight um in the grand magnitude of the project scenarios the economic
38:46 impacts estimated are not very large but i'll talk to you talk talk you through two scenarios
38:52 where the warren road building remains a private use and happens to get developed
38:57 as a private end use could be residential could be commercial could be mixed use
39:02 will probably require incentives um and i was informed tonight that there
39:06 may be an incentive request pending for that property or the
39:11 the legislation was approved so these numbers need to be updated so i'll talk about the
39:16 updated numbers and we'll send them to you after the meeting um but from an income tax
39:21 standpoint that doesn't change based on the property taxes so uh for the warren road property
39:27 made some assumptions on commercial and residential use and blended the two scenarios
39:31 uh to make things as equal as possible uh the one-year income tax estimate would be around
39:37 21,000 per year multiply that by 30 that's 640,000 over a 30-year period for the annex
39:44 building uh it's much smaller it's a smaller site smaller building doesn't assume you know
39:49 high rise going in so the average impact on income taxes uh we have a 5,500 a year
39:56 and 166,000 over 30 years the property taxes is where things have changed tonight
40:03 the annex building uh we estimate around 3,000 in city taxes per year if that's a private use
40:09 at 96,000 over 30 years in new taxes for the schools 10,000 per year and 300,000 over
40:17 30 years now it could be a project that gets abated potentially um so that could affect things
40:25 too on the board of education building on warren road um given the tax incentives that were passed
40:34 there would be no new city taxes over the 30 years because there's a tax abatement for 15
40:39 years and a non-school tiff for the last 15 years of that 30-year period for the school
40:45 taxes take that 1.4 million divided in half so that would be 700,000 over 30 years as the
40:51 schools taxes so you're looking at a swing on the income tax front of half a million more per
40:59 year from the warren site being redeveloped as a private use on the property tax side
41:05 it's double the impacts for the schools but within 100 grand either way for city taxes
41:15 again these are small impacts compared to the overall uh maybe if director
41:19 bienton has any questions or comments to add okay happy to answer your questions
41:25 or anyone else in the administration
41:30 thank you thank you and you'll send us an updated yes side of this thank you
41:37 okay so the last slide is really a summary and then there's these cash flows
41:43 which you were talking about before so the again it's to summarize the first option
41:48 estimated project cost at 21.4 million 62,000 plus gross square feet of renovated a new space
41:57 no change to tax revenue the program fits but there's no room for growth makes a fair statement
42:05 city functions stay in one location and there's no renovation at the exit to the existing jail
42:09 or support spaces option two you're at 30 million 984,985 74,872 gross square feet
42:22 of renovated a new space no change to tax revenue program fits with room for growth
42:30 city functions stay in one location and again no renovation to the existing jail and support spaces
42:37 option three is at 39.7 million 90,459 gross square feet of renovated a new space
42:48 tax revenue as ken mentioned there are some changes so these numbers might get tweaked a
42:53 bit but it was based on the earlier projections and his spreadsheet um you would there would be
43:01 a 15,800 loss every year of average income tax because it would now be a city-owned property
43:09 and the property tax would be less 60,000 that's with the assumption that the annex would be sold
43:18 yeah and occupied and redeveloped yeah all those assumptions a program fits with planning
43:25 your room for growth city functions are in two locations and again no renovation to
43:30 the existing jail and support spaces from a cash flow perspective now this is aggressive
43:36 and we don't know what the delivery method is and how you're going to do it there's
43:39 different ways you're gonna do i know one thought was going um design bill with the
43:43 criteria architect but really we think and maybe it shouldn't be fiscal year should be
43:47 his calendar year apologies on that um that next year 26 would be spent in design
43:54 and then tail end you might be able to pull it off if you're aggressive with design
43:58 and you know what you want you can bid by the end of the year and be ready for construction
44:03 in year 27 so the the first one is a probably a two-year project plus a little bit the second
44:10 one is definitely a three-year project and the third one is is definitely um well it's probably
44:17 four years in duration so actually the second one's probably four years i'm sorry because you
44:21 have your design so it's really a four-year project the second one and a four-year project
44:25 on the third one as well but you're really spending a lot more money on the in the last
44:30 end because you're renovating that last building after you build after you renovate the
44:35 property um off foreign road you want to renovate that first move everybody in and
44:40 then renovate the other space at least that would be the seem the logical way to do it
44:46 but you can do otherwise too and these are high level but it just kind of gives you
44:53 a sense of what your cash flows would be
44:58 thank you i'm gonna go uh councilman hamilton steiner first um thank you president couple um
45:04 okay so just to clarify the projected cash flow in the planning so either way
45:10 actually either option one two or three that first year would be like the planning the
45:14 bidding all of that stuff right correct essentially okay so that's like essentially
45:20 year zero and then the subsequent years would be year one year two year three so when you're
45:27 saying option two and three are going to be three year projects that's what you mean
45:31 and option one would be two years correct okay great um and then thank you for clarifying
45:37 the fiscal year we were just having a little discussion before that how confusing that is
45:41 our fiscal year goes january one to december 30th so you could replace it with calendar
45:48 year so it's clearer to people but um so yeah right that's right we'll make that change in
45:53 the revised copies yeah yeah just not because yeah yep yeah it was a yearly thing but i should
45:59 have put fiscal i should just put calendar year yeah no it's fine um so we'd be looking
46:04 at potentially either option if we were to move forward at some point next year 1.2 1.5
46:10 or 1.6 approximately coming out of next year's budget correct thank you high level correct
46:18 uh other councilman book did you have something else i'm just more clarifying questions so this is
46:27 all very helpful um back to the dollars question so at the bottom of this slide
46:34 again these are shall we call them 20 26 dollars yes across the schedule just for
46:41 uniformity okay so we may find that it creeps up but it'd be yeah all of them would be plus five
46:51 percent ish we correct for design you're probably the least risk as far as the cost
46:58 escalation part goes because you're not you're not building something you it's professional fees
47:03 and and those are about that's probably in that range you know you're not going to
47:06 pay all the professional fees because they have construction administration so if you take the
47:10 a and e fees you know the architectural engineering fees two-thirds of it will be
47:14 spent during the um somatic design design development in contract documents in a traditional
47:20 method right so that's about two-thirds a little more than two-thirds of their fee
47:24 the rest will be spent during construction a portion but a sizable portion yeah but
47:29 you'll have some other testing you'll have other consultants upon that so these are range
47:34 okay that that answered my question thanks and then the room for growth statements actually
47:41 before i ask that the do the annex is assumed to be sold and redeveloped in option three only
47:47 and retained for ownership in option one and two at this point yes okay just to understand
47:52 what we're looking at and then the room for growth statement those are insightful and
47:57 important so how do we know that option one's no room for growth but option two and three
48:04 have room for growth you're basing that on uh yes so at the end of option one we we looked
48:14 at it and that's when it was um discussed that the police in courts mostly the police
48:22 they needed room to grow in order to get the correct if you will um square foot per person
48:31 and comparable to other municipalities so that's where really the growth needed needed to happen
48:39 the most with regards to all the other departments there we were able to reconfigure
48:47 and find spaces throughout the building but there wasn't really a three year growth a five
48:53 year growth you know in terms of okay i think i follow but let me make sure though so option
49:00 one does propose a small um addition would that small addition meet the needs of the
49:10 police department it did not okay and that's why the it went on so option that that
49:17 the needs get more fully met in option two and three that's the point right okay and let's say
49:26 we do one of those and we're done at the end of the project now the police are in an expanded
49:32 space we have no more room for growth right is that what we're saying in other words is behind
49:39 your statement that there's room for growth that a future phase beyond the the needs
49:45 understood today about the need for police expansion let's say we take care of those
49:51 are you saying we're baking in additional growth potential beyond that at the end of option two
49:57 or three or that's not what the phrase means so um we were able to work together with the
50:03 police department to look at the programs that needed to happen not only currently but in the
50:08 future okay within that within that expanded square footage for for police within option two
50:15 and then subsequently okay so that's really the the the room for growth
50:20 bullets there are really a statement about the ability of those options to meet the expanded
50:27 space needs for the police department is that right i don't chief if you
50:30 seem like you have something to interject
50:32 um not being fully um aware of option two at all uh i think what uh mr uh big dave over there
50:44 was trying to say was um this this option three that we had discussed or that i was a part of
50:51 meets the needs now uh is it for future um growth i think it's just what we discussed
50:59 was meeting the needs of today okay is that what you mean by what you're presenting here
51:05 so it's what may be a little bit confusing as well is that we did five options and the
51:10 options have been renumbered okay that's where they're not this maybe what we can
51:18 clarify here is when we talk about room for growth are we talking about personnel growth
51:25 or um the usage of the space personnel growth was my understanding i mean it was the the
51:32 there's not any anticipation of growing more space after one of these
51:37 okay so in terms of i guess the question then is if we're saying um option one would
51:44 get us a female locker room maybe some some things but it doesn't doesn't give us any
51:51 wiggle room for the future in terms of police but um i guess i guess what my question is when
51:59 we're talking about room for growth is well i have two one is probably more of an architectural
52:03 question one is more of a staffing question so the architectural question being so option one
52:09 was one specific solution of the small addition on the side but of course that's just one
52:17 possible design solution that just for the sake of getting our heads around this issue
52:24 that we have a small addition a large addition the two building solution
52:29 so the large addition accomplishes a great deal of square footage and so if we're talking
52:36 about personnel growth versus the use of space growth i guess i'm trying to get my head around
52:43 two is option one is a small addition but could that be phased so if you did option one
52:50 and you solve the worst immediate stress and then in a couple years you go up or you go out
52:59 or something like that you know so that's kind of when we're talking about room for growth
53:02 we're talking about the project i'm going to state this and you can tell me if i'm right
53:07 or wrong architects so room for growth meaning that if we get with any of these options
53:15 that there's in the in the structure as laid out at the high level conceptual there is room
53:21 for additional personnel or use of space that isn't currently contemplated is that does that
53:29 make sense so regardless of option that we're saying if there's room for growth it means that
53:36 more people could be in this space than are than are squeezed in in the design so in in option one
53:43 with that very small addition to the east it it really only solves a few things it it may have
53:51 moved like training and the the roll call room and to be able to squeeze in where the locker
54:01 room would go for men's and then find a spot that would then take over a lobby space for
54:07 the women's locker room so it really it it doesn't give the amount of square footage that
54:15 the police department needs yeah no i i get that i'm just trying to define the term because
54:23 it's also if it is a design term in terms of we're trying to accomplish x number of
54:28 square feet per person and that doesn't happen here but it does happen this one
54:33 and then the other question is that's making assumptions too about this the other use of
54:41 city hall so if you bump out into planning and then you know more planning department
54:45 personnel work from home and so then you have more flexibility in space but that's not
54:49 necessarily contemplated in that design i'm just trying to get my head around but i'm
54:53 gonna go to vice president baker he he knows more about this and can probably say
54:55 it more articulately than i can well yeah i think at this stage and i i think what
54:59 what we're bumping up against is programming versus square foot which is just different right
55:02 and so um we're not at that program stage as i understand it david maybe has a little bit
55:07 more in-depth knowledge of that through his space study analysis that he and his firm did
55:12 but i think basically as a council and as a city and as a public we think about is
55:16 no build is we have about 59 or 58 000 square feet of like municipal police office space
55:23 option one you get 63 option two you get 75 option three you get 90 i think that's that's
55:29 where the term room for growth comes from you just have more square footage right how you
55:33 program that is it is a totally different detailed design question that kind of meets
55:38 with the program right and each each job classification probably has like a standard
55:43 square foot per employee and yeah i'm getting a little over my skis but so i think the the
55:49 in these particular slides what room for growth means is just you just have more square footage
55:53 right dedicated to that function and you can figure out what to do with it
55:57 because we don't have super detailed designs we have conceptual council what do we help work
56:03 with the administration to say this is what we're willing to fund this is what we think
56:07 is the right option in the immediate time we have a building that's for sale and we need to
56:11 start making decisions and thinking about it critically so i think that's what this does it
56:15 doesn't we're getting into programming and that's very important incredibly important but
56:19 we're just not there with this exercise is that correct i mean that is that is correct
56:24 um in order i mean in order to um so what was conceptual estimate three of five is now what
56:36 three is got it and uh with the addition of of renovating worn worn road and that's that's
56:46 the scheme where we where we did really look a little bit more at programming for the police
56:52 department and for courts to know that they would have the appropriate amount of square foot
57:01 needed per person for the functions so so there there were certain concepts that had more
57:10 detailed program than than not and i think what what chris's firm did is you know they
57:17 just you know in looking at the the amount of um money and the amount of square footage
57:24 they just went by the totals and gave that square footage with regards to who
57:28 gets what you know that's still you know still in flux yeah i mean we we took a stab at it
57:37 yeah and that's part of uh and i i'm sorry and i think one of the the last things i'll mention
57:41 is you know the the blob out front right it doesn't have to go out the way it did it could
57:46 more hug the building it's just i think conceptually speaking what would happen if
57:50 we added you know that amount of square footage to the building right in my eyes you know um a
57:56 fine employer in the city of lakewood but a school i don't like for sports reasons
57:59 saint eds kind of did the same thing that came out on the front yeah
58:05 i think the the other part of my question that is is in regards to the part and i think that's
58:09 a bigger picture question um that isn't part of this exercise but is is important to think
58:15 about you know as councilman bullock points out to us this we've been the city has had
58:21 difficult financial times before and at one point losing staff and i think every department
58:26 except police and fire and so just thinking operationally if there is a plan to expand
58:34 staffing and what those long-range operation costs are not just in police but in any
58:38 department that goes to ongoing operational costs and you know we what size what how much space
58:46 do we need for what size staff doing what so those are kind of bigger picture questions
58:51 that are outside of this exercise but it is part of this whole um thought process for me
58:56 that's when council member hamilton steiner yeah so going back to um the whole room for
59:03 growth and maybe this is more directed at chief fisher um you know i i think i don't know
59:10 if it would be the appropriate i know you said you know bigger picture personnel but i think as
59:14 far as the police it would be nice to know what the future five-year 10-year plan for
59:21 the police force is in terms of recruitment who we're going to be bringing in because then i
59:26 think we can make a better decision i think going back to your question about the the physical
59:34 sort of footprint of option one in the room for growth um if that were the option would
59:44 there be additional space to come back and add on so like if we're able to fit the police need
59:52 direct right now would we be able to come back and do additional work let's say in you know
59:58 five years we boom again right um so could we come back so i guess those are my questions
1:00:05 and i i don't know if chief fisher you want to respond so your question is staffing level
1:00:12 i see us maintaining the same level of staff it's the obviously the demographics the females
1:00:19 unfortunately right now in the male locker room or detective bureau locker room not only that and
1:00:25 not to get again this is high level conceptual but um the uh i think um mr thal can can um
1:00:33 also speak to is that the rooms right now as they're configured aren't adequate like the
1:00:37 detective bureau you've all walked through i mean the the desks and stuff like that so
1:00:41 it's a hard question to answer staff wise i anticipate having maintained the staff but
1:00:46 obviously probably hiring more females still and um specializing units and getting people that
1:00:52 work spaces they need they just don't have it right now
1:00:58 thank you and i would be interested to hear not necessarily tonight this is again bigger
1:01:03 conversation but um i know that there were that there was a lot of conversation that happened
1:01:09 with the different departments about the types of spaces that they need because it is also
1:01:14 the in in this concept of what type of spaces needed for what type of work and and as as
1:01:20 well as the broader conversations too about in modern work area you know we all lived through
1:01:26 city hall and um you know are we do we need as much in-person workspace and so like some of
1:01:32 these conversations i'd be interested to if that information has been gathered by the
1:01:37 administration i'd be interested to have some of that let's move on thanks since since
1:01:42 maybe i partly opened the can of worms but thank you to everybody for the discussion of
1:01:47 room for growth i i got the answer so i think what we're talking about is
1:01:50 is does each alternative option how well or not well does it meet the known needs of today
1:01:58 and so i understand what we're talking about here in terms of future expansion
1:02:03 um i guess i'll i'll put my my cards on the table say um i i think we should hold that for
1:02:11 a future phase not baking into this because there's costs if we over engineer over expand
1:02:17 we're for sure committing extra square footage costs you know i think what's driving these
1:02:23 different estimate costs are the total square footage at least at this conceptual stage right
1:02:29 and we probably can't afford that you know to have an annex that's vacant for indeterminate
1:02:37 future needs today when we could reasonably do it and probably really do what the council
1:02:44 president just said you know redesign flexible use of people are in the office three days they're
1:02:50 working from home two days we could probably find the new space within the existing
1:02:56 footprint i think that's the very approach by analogy that our new parking garage at the
1:03:02 asto now casto property is going to do we're going to have more functional spaces than
1:03:07 physical spaces because of the smart coordination of that the other thing just
1:03:13 i mean historically personnel drives operational costs this is a city budgeting not this project
1:03:21 budgeting but every year we want to try to pay appropriate cost of living increases to the
1:03:28 wages and then of course benefits keep going up and up and up and up and i was actually
1:03:34 we we offer good benefits in this in the city but that's not a zero cost so that kind of the
1:03:40 rule of thumb or the policy is probably in our budget binder somewhere right and one of the
1:03:44 policy and procedures is we are careful about adding new fte's to this overall city personal
1:03:51 i'm glad to hear the chief i agree with your statement let's maintain and the challenge with
1:03:58 the challenge with probably all public safety is there's a cycling of people retiring people
1:04:05 graduating up in seniority maybe they they find a new position somewhere else and we got to
1:04:10 retrain them and we we we don't want to be the developmental league for other other departments
1:04:17 because there's a cost to to us in that in all kinds of ways it's a compliment but it's a
1:04:23 compliment we don't really want we want to retain our talent so just maintaining a skilled
1:04:31 quality workforce with the 99 sworn officers and then there's another
1:04:36 15 20 leadership and administrative support in the police department is a lot
1:04:44 probably director bindings department you guys are doing 250 percent of the work for each fte
1:04:50 you have you know i mean there's an argument you made that some departments do need more head
1:04:55 count but i i think it's a good policy in general for us to to do that cautiously in
1:05:00 a little bit at a time rather than saying hey we really know today that we got to increase
1:05:05 our personnel and the last little tidbit is i think traditionally what we tried to do was
1:05:11 use six sigma and other very business wonky improvements to improve our throughput
1:05:21 it wasn't that long ago that we were using triplicate carbons for you know building
1:05:26 permits and so forth that while we move to ipads and so on and so forth so we're doing
1:05:29 better and better but i'm sure there's more productivity improvements that we can keep
1:05:34 achieving so that our head count doesn't go up but we're still doing a good job for the
1:05:38 public in our customer service so all of that aside that's the programming thing but that
1:05:44 rushes up against the architecture and square footage footage questions thanks
1:05:50 as president baker thank you and i kind of as i as i see these and by the way you know
1:05:56 president couple councilman evans and myself and myself worked with chris and david and ken
1:06:02 on this and you know we kind of this was coalescing last week so this is all new
1:06:06 data for us too but as i think about it laid out this way it's almost like
1:06:12 us as a city and a public have you know this is a continuum and what i mean here is that
1:06:18 what do you want to do right how much square footage do you want and you want it to be
1:06:22 renovated space existing space do you want to have in two different sites does that
1:06:26 justice center model so you can go all the way from on the left even further than option
1:06:30 one to just renovate existing space make it work right that's technically an option
1:06:35 all the way to option three which is 90,000 square feet but really within option one and two that's
1:06:42 where the float is right like the addition could be 20,000 square feet it could be
1:06:47 10,000 right so it's it's it's and that's where i think we need to figure out what we
1:06:54 need or is you know the war and road building the right route and so i think those are the
1:07:01 things where now that we're seeing this really laid out those are the decisions we have to make
1:07:05 and and hopefully relatively soon
1:07:10 thank you and i think that's part of why normally at this point in the year when
1:07:16 we're getting the budget ordinances presented at the full council meeting tonight we would
1:07:23 begin with budget hearings but we we're squeezing this in because it is very important
1:07:29 we all this body the administration we've all recognized we need to address particularly the
1:07:35 police space issues so that's the priority i think for everyone i don't think that's
1:07:41 a wild thing to say that we all want to make sure we address that we want to make sure that
1:07:45 we address it as we're going into budget season that is has huge ramifications for
1:07:50 the capital budget whichever solution we also want to be respectful of the current owner
1:07:56 of the warren road building and make sure we get them a decision in a relatively timely
1:08:01 manner so hence why we have been working as diligently as possible as expeditiously
1:08:08 as possible to get this high level conceptual apples to apples pulled together as quickly
1:08:14 as we could to have this conversation tonight other questions from council members
1:08:22 any questions or comments from the administration director mahogany i know there was at one point
1:08:29 some analysis of how much more square footage the police department does need do you remember
1:08:42 um i don't i don't know exactly what that number is but i i have it here and i can get
1:08:47 it here and i can get that to you okay and then my other question is option two there's
1:08:52 no chance to move the annex over to city hall in that option so it does not provide enough
1:08:58 room to move the annex operations over to city hall as as the option two stands right now
1:09:09 it it still needed the function of having the annex but you know just like options do
1:09:19 and discussions provoke ideas it could be something depending on the
1:09:28 you have the direction whether they could fit or not but right now it was too much
1:09:35 of a square footage to be able to move into city hall knowing that there were all these other
1:09:43 departments that needed needed to be worked out and to fit so it almost seems to suggest
1:09:49 that the police needed at least 16 000 square feet then yeah i can i can look at the numbers
1:09:55 i think um in total i had some total square footage as of what the ideal square footage
1:10:01 would be but that's okay that's about it i think it may have been around that a little bit more in
1:10:06 total okay thank you assistant director solid yeah i had just a quick question do either option
1:10:12 one or two include any additional space for the traditional administrative staff or the court
1:10:19 or is that only contemplating expansion to accommodate the police department and what they
1:10:25 currently need or might need in the future so option one that was done a couple of years
1:10:30 ago it really looked at every single department and had involved interviews with with police
1:10:36 courts finance law every every department and we looked at what the needs were
1:10:44 spaces and so really one was sort of you know looking at where the space where there
1:10:50 are spaces within this building that weren't being used as efficiently and so really it
1:10:58 involved every every and and so we took that same idea into option two to be able to get
1:11:05 the square footage needs that we found needed to happen for the police department
1:11:13 so i hope that answered your question thank you yes you're welcome i think one of those
1:11:17 things too is and it's a little hard to see in this but it is we do have um the renderings
1:11:24 from weber murphy fox are in that shared folder which should have access to where
1:11:28 you can blow them up more easily to see the detail but one of those i think it should be
1:11:34 in there has the sort of hatch marks of that show where current space on option two
1:11:43 where it says which like which things are assigned and which are sort of unassigned
1:11:48 and existing departments and those sorts of things so with the idea of that isn't necessarily
1:11:55 all police space or things could be reconfigured and um and again to say high level conceptual
1:12:01 again but um but also that just to for the purposes of trying to get our heads around this
1:12:08 we're talking about these sort of three options but there are more than three options that exist
1:12:14 in the world vice president bicker yeah and to director mahoney's point i mean
1:12:18 you'd run the numbers if you the annex is 4 000 square feet right now and you have 4 000
1:12:22 square feet here you just take 4 000 square feet times 500 bucks square foot for new building and
1:12:27 that would be the additional 4 000 square feet so i think it's i don't want to oversimplify
1:12:31 what david and and and chris would do but that's a rough you know so it's in the
1:12:36 continual right it's just what what we want to do
1:12:43 effort yeah i would just say quickly too just to again we're looking at that option to the the
1:12:48 addition is just kind of a nebulous blob right now and so when you're working from something
1:12:53 that's pretty much a blank box you have a lot more efficiency in design and the way things
1:12:57 are laid out and how to get people in there that you do if you're working with an existing
1:13:00 building where there are constraints you're going to run up against so i mean i certainly
1:13:03 think there's going to be ways you're going to find efficiencies in that
1:13:06 addition to be able to build there in a you know a better smarter way
1:13:11 then we're looking at some of the renovation scenarios
1:13:18 all right other questions or comments
1:13:24 anyone want to have public comment on this topic
1:13:26 public no okay last last chance for questions or comments on this topic because we do have
1:13:34 another item on our agenda that i will move to if we do not have further ones at this time
1:13:40 yep okay well thank you very much uh gentlemen if you want to go on with your evening you're
1:13:45 welcome to do so thank you thank you very much all right so we do have another item
1:13:53 on the agenda for committee of the whole which is our appointment to the tree education and
1:13:58 advisory board task force and i'm looking at council member evans who did some work on our
1:14:05 behalf on this topic yeah do executive session it doesn't have to be but it can be did we
1:14:18 notice that did we notice executive session marine we did okay
1:14:29 oh we did okay all right so i will make a motion to enter executive session for the purpose of
1:14:36 considering um a city what is the language of that assistant uh director swallow
1:14:46 uh the appointment of a public official thank you very much so that is my motion to enter
1:14:51 executive session for that purpose all right thank you and we do need a roll call yes all
1:14:58 right evans marks couple yes baker bullock strubig yes hamilton steiner yes all right
1:15:06 and i will include in that um council staff and any relevant members of the administration