Written by the reviewer from the ASR + docket; [verbatim-ASR] = quoted machine transcript; [paraphrase] = reviewer's wording, not a quote.
0:00 Alright, welcome everyone. We'll call Committee of the Whole to order. I will first move to
0:10 approve the minutes of the January 12th Committee of the Whole meeting without the necessity
0:15 The motion's been made and seconded. Discussion? Hearing none. All those in favor?
0:22 And that motion passes. Okay, so tonight we have two communications from in the docket
0:29 just really laying out kind of our, the City Hall space considerations that we've been discussing.
0:37 We'll be digging into more with the amended schedule in the upcoming weeks. But before
0:43 we dive into that, so in the next few weeks, like I said, we expect to have in-depth conversations
0:50 about City Hall space solution options and the specifics of the administration's proposal.
0:58 Before we do that, I know I wanted to educate myself further on about the relevant terminology,
1:05 best practices, and I thought many of us might feel the same way and benefit from
1:11 either an introduction or in some cases a refresher, depending on our level of experience
1:17 with this type of work. So we are facing a pretty monumental decision and most of
1:24 us are not professionals in the field like Vice President Baker is or Councilman Evans
1:30 has some experience in this. Some of us, this might be our first go-round with this.
1:34 So tonight's session is intended to be a general high-level primer on public procurement,
1:41 renovation, and construction 101 explanations of approaches such as design build and
1:47 defining terminology such as criteria architect, et cetera. It's not intended to be a
1:53 review or discussion of the administration's specific proposal, but rather a general education
1:59 session. So Vice President Baker and I connected with the professional organization Cogence
2:05 Alliance and to ask for a third-party expert who might be able to provide us with this
2:11 type of overview, and we are very grateful to be joined tonight by Cogence President
2:16 and Lakewood resident Carter Edmon. Mr. Edmon is also the Vice President of the
2:21 American Institute of Architects Cleveland Chapter, and from 2017 to 2023, he served
2:29 as the City Architect for the City of Cleveland. Mr. Edmon has prepared a presentation,
2:35 which we expect to be around 20 minutes, leaving us with an additional 20 minutes for
2:39 questions, but we can also pause for questions on specific slides as needed.
2:45 So with that, before I turn it over to Mr. Edmon, did anyone else have any
2:49 preliminary remarks that you want to make, or Vice President Baker, did I miss anything?
2:54 Okay. Councilman Bullock.
3:00 I appreciate the step here to educate us and explain technical vocabulary. I was at
3:08 a conference with engineers once, and they said, you know, we can never get through
3:11 a meeting without a bunch of TLAs, and they said, what's TLAs? Three-letter acronym.
3:15 So it comes with the territory. So thank you. It's a good idea. Appreciate it.
3:21 Thank you. All right. Mr. Edmon.
3:25 Thank you, Madam President and members of council, and thanks for the opportunity
3:29 to share this with you, and I want to commend you for reaching out and really
3:34 being thoughtful about project delivery and how it affects capital projects,
3:37 particularly for municipality. I want to acknowledge Sean McDermott, whom I think
3:43 most of you know, from Cleveland Metro Parks, who's one of the members of
3:50 Cogent's Alliance and has been a pioneer in alternative and smart project
3:54 delivery in the public sector in Ohio, and helped make this connection.
3:59 So thank you, Sean. I'm going to tell you just a little bit about
4:02 Cogent's Alliance, and then I'm going to get into project delivery.
4:05 There's kind of a lot in here, and there's a lot of text in the slides.
4:08 So you may want to review these later. I'm sure they'll be available for everyone.
4:16 And also, I can be available for follow-up. If anything I say doesn't make sense
4:21 or I use language that I don't adequately explain, please, you know,
4:25 interrupt me. I can take questions throughout, and I'll try to be mindful
4:28 of the time. So Cogent's Alliance is a nonprofit organization that brings
4:35 together architects, owners, engineers, contractors, trade contractors,
4:40 and allied professionals in a forum to discuss best practices for project
4:45 delivery. It's the only organization like that that I know of,
4:49 and it's the only place where you get these really frank discussions
4:53 about the challenges that everybody in all the different disciplines around
4:57 capital projects faces. I first came to Cogent's Alliance when I was
5:02 the city architect for the city of Cleveland. I found it incredibly valuable
5:05 as an owner, and that affiliation with Cogent's really helped facilitate
5:11 and made it possible for us to pass construction reform legislation
5:14 for the city of Cleveland. So it's had a great benefit for me
5:18 and my profession. The core values of Cogent's Alliance are understanding
5:24 the diverse backgrounds, and that's professional and personal backgrounds,
5:28 experiences and beliefs of various team members, exchanging ideas through,
5:33 I will say, sometimes brutally frank conversations and debate,
5:37 being responsible for positive outcomes over time, with a lifelong passion
5:42 to learn, grow, and stay curious. I would also be remiss if I didn't
5:47 mention AIA Cleveland. I am also the vice president of the
5:51 Cleveland chapter of the AIA, which is also a resource for a lot
5:53 of great information and connections to the design community to learn more
5:59 about various aspects. Could you remind my colleagues what AIA
6:02 stands for? I'm sorry.
6:03 It's the American Institute of Architects. It's the professional organization
6:06 of architects like the AMA is for doctors.
6:11 So we're going to talk about project delivery, and let me first say
6:16 what do I mean by project delivery. Project delivery in this context means
6:20 structuring the contracts for a construction project to support project success.
6:27 Contracts, as you know, define relationships and responsibilities.
6:31 There are a lot of different parties involved in any construction project
6:35 of any significance that all have different roles and different
6:38 expertise that must be brought together in a Cogent way and drive
6:42 toward the same goals in order for a project to be successful.
6:46 And the right contract structure, and there are many possible contract
6:50 structures, but the right contract structure can help that and the wrong
6:54 structure can inhibit it. There are a lot of considerations
6:59 in selecting a project delivery method, and one thing I want to be very
7:03 clear about here is there is no silver bullet delivery method.
7:07 There is no perfect delivery method for all projects.
7:10 The goal is always to find the right and appropriate delivery method
7:14 for each project, and there are a lot of things to consider when doing that.
7:20 One of the most prominent of those is risk tolerance and risk allocation
7:25 for the project owner. A municipality has a different risk
7:29 tolerance than a Silicon Valley startup, appropriately so.
7:34 And the risk, how the risk is shared among those players
7:39 in the project, which we'll look at, is an important consideration
7:42 in project delivery. One is owner experience
7:45 and sophistication. How well or what capacity does the owner
7:50 have to manage a complex project? City of Lakewood obviously has a lot
7:55 of capital projects under their belt, and they have really good
7:58 highly skilled professionals to help them with that.
7:59 It's on the more sophisticated side of a project owner.
8:05 What's the scale, scope, and complexity of the project?
8:07 We'll see that different methods are more appropriate for different scopes.
8:11 How much control does the owner want over things like design,
8:15 the quality of the product, the schedule, and which of those?
8:19 Maybe controlling one is more important than the other.
8:21 How much transparency and accountability is needed?
8:24 Obviously, for a municipality, that's very important.
8:28 What is the schedule? Is it fast? Is it looser?
8:31 How important is that? And other project specific constraints.
8:36 There's maybe a very challenging site you're working on.
8:39 Maybe there are legal constraints. Maybe there are grants involved that have
8:43 constraints that come with them, like maybe there's a community benefits
8:47 agreement attached to it. So all these other constraints might
8:50 influence the decision of how to deliver the project.
8:55 Risk tends to be the one we talk about the most,
8:58 and it tends to be the one that occupies the biggest part of our
9:01 conscience as we think about construction projects.
9:04 Risk affects every member of the project team.
9:08 We tend to think of it as the owner, which is O here, which we'll see these
9:12 characters again. The owner, the contractor, and the
9:15 architect, the O, the C, and the A. We tend to think of risk as involving
9:19 those primarily and kind of binding them together.
9:23 There may also be a landlord or another ownership entity.
9:27 The contractor will be bringing in trade contractors.
9:31 So those TC's that we're going to see, that's trade contractors.
9:33 There may be a construction manager involved.
9:36 All of these entities have responsibilities toward each other,
9:39 and all of them have some exposure to risk.
9:42 That risk and those responsibilities are, to a greater or lesser degree,
9:46 defined by the contents of the contracts that they have with one
9:51 another. Some of these entities will have
9:53 contracts with each other, and some of them won't.
9:56 Some of those risk barriers are well defined and some aren't.
10:00 So there's this web of interdependent responsibilities and risks
10:05 that defines the project team, and it's because of that web
10:09 that communication and collaboration and team transparency is
10:13 the most critical factor for project success.
10:16 FMI did a study that said that 48 percent of construction-related
10:20 lawsuits stem from a lack of communication.
10:24 I don't know how they measure lack of communication, but FMI is
10:27 ensuring these projects, so they're very deeply invested in
10:30 them not having lawsuits.
10:33 So this is kind of a hidden nexus behind all these
10:36 relationships that we want to make sure is not too hidden.
10:38 I'm sorry, could you just quickly go through what each of these
10:44 Okay, so O is the owner.
10:45 So in this case, that's you.
10:48 C is the contractor, and all the sort of bluish-colored are
10:51 contractor-y things.
10:53 So C is the general contractor you would have a contract with.
10:57 And then TC is trade contractors.
10:59 So that's your masons, your plumbers, your carpenters.
11:03 CM is a construction manager, which we'll define a little bit later.
11:07 A is the architect, and I'm biased towards architects
11:10 because I'm an architect.
11:12 I really mean the entire professional design team.
11:14 That's architects, engineers.
11:16 It could be specialists like building envelope specialist
11:19 or sustainability specialist, which may be important in a project.
11:24 And LL is landlord, which really only applies in one kind of
11:27 specific case we're going to look at.
11:31 Risk is the entropy in the project.
11:35 Entropy is everywhere.
11:37 Risk is everywhere.
11:38 It cannot be completely eliminated.
11:41 It must be anticipated, understood, and managed.
11:47 There tends to be mythologies out there about different
11:51 construction project delivery methods that this will eliminate risk.
11:55 This will put all the risk on X.
12:00 It needs to be anticipated, understood, and managed.
12:01 And it can be managed.
12:04 The three best tools to manage risk, in my opinion,
12:08 are, in order, communication, transparency, and the contractual structure.
12:15 There's every piece, every entity in the team has some bit of knowledge
12:19 and expertise that's critical to the project.
12:21 And if you don't have communication, you don't have the benefit of all that
12:24 knowledge, and transparency is the methodology and the culture to
12:30 The contractual structure can enable that.
12:33 That's why the arrows are coming up, or it can inhibit it, but the
12:37 contractual structure itself is not enough.
12:39 The owner has to drive the culture of collaboration.
12:43 If the owner doesn't believe in that, it's not going to happen.
12:49 Regardless of the delivery method.
12:52 So I'm going to talk about four delivery methods primarily.
12:55 Build to suit, design, bid, build, construction manager at risk,
13:02 These four, and primarily the design, bid, build, CMR, and design,
13:08 build, that's the vast majority of construction.
13:10 So we'll define these and talk about what they're appropriate for,
13:14 and advantages and considerations of each one.
13:19 There's others that I'm not really going to talk about.
13:21 One is multiple prime, which I wouldn't recommend to anyone unless
13:24 it's legally required or you're a masochist.
13:27 One is integrated project delivery, which is, I think, often a step too
13:33 far for most public entities.
13:34 We can talk about that if you're interested.
13:36 And the other is construction manager, advisor.
13:39 I'm going to mention this.
13:42 I'm not going to talk about it as a separate delivery method.
13:44 This has really evolved into the owner's representative role,
13:49 which could apply to a lot of different delivery methods.
13:52 And owner's representative is exactly what it says.
13:54 You hire someone to act on your behalf in managing the project.
14:01 Typically, if you don't have the capacity or the experience
14:03 in-house to manage it.
14:05 So let's talk about build to suit.
14:08 Build to suit is when either a landlord or a person who owns
14:12 a piece of property and intends to sell it offers to their tenants
14:17 or to someone who's looking at buying the property,
14:20 offers to improve that property in some way, some capital way,
14:24 and then sell it or lease it.
14:26 And then the person who's buying it or the tenant pays for that
14:32 through the purchase price or through their rent going forward.
14:35 So the way this works is then that landlord, that property holder,
14:40 would engage an architect and a contractor in whatever fashion
14:43 they feel is appropriate to execute that work.
14:46 So the owner, the person who's ultimately going to occupy either
14:50 rent or finally own, who's going to occupy that,
14:53 does not have any contractual relationship with the entities
14:55 who are going to execute the project.
14:57 Their contractual relationship is only with the property owner,
15:02 So you can immediately see there's a division.
15:05 There's a gap there.
15:06 There's a lack of communication and control and collaboration
15:11 between the owner and the design and construction team.
15:15 And I'm going to say I've led projects in every one of the
15:18 delivery methods I'm talking about here.
15:21 And in my experience, even with the best landlord,
15:26 this is a very opaque process just by the way it's structured.
15:30 There is a lack of direct control and collaboration
15:33 between, say, the users on the owner's side
15:37 and the people who are designing the space.
15:38 Even if that landlord is very gracious and you meet with the architect,
15:43 the architect isn't working for you, right?
15:45 The architect is working for that landlord.
15:48 So there's a lack of control and collaboration.
15:51 It's very difficult to adapt to change.
15:54 One of the things that is as constant as entropy
15:58 is change in construction projects.
16:01 And it's very difficult to customize work.
16:04 One of the advantages, and this is not insignificant
16:07 in the appropriate project, is that it's very easy to do
16:10 for that owner, that end user.
16:12 If you are a tenant in an office building
16:16 and the landlord offers to do tenant improvements for you
16:20 and it rolls into your rent over the next 10 years,
16:24 This type of delivery approach is appropriate for tenants
16:31 in a building like that who may not be able
16:33 to front end the capital for that
16:35 or who don't have any ownership in the property
16:39 so they don't want to invest money
16:41 into capital improvements for something
16:43 they won't ultimately own.
16:46 Or if an entity wants to roll capital improvements
16:50 into the mortgage if they're buying the property,
16:53 it's really good for simple standardized projects
16:55 like a spec office building, parking lots.
16:58 We see it with industrial properties,
17:00 industrial sheds, things like that.
17:04 The bottom line and build to suit is this.
17:07 This is the takeaway.
17:08 If you don't own the property,
17:10 you don't control the project.
17:12 And if you don't hold the contract,
17:14 and I mean the contract with the people
17:15 who are doing the project,
17:17 you don't control the project.
17:22 Let's talk about design, bid, build.
17:24 And like I said, if any questions,
17:25 please just let me know.
17:29 Design, build, build.
17:30 This is the traditional way of doing capital projects,
17:34 particularly in the public environment.
17:36 And it's very simple.
17:37 It's just what most people imagine.
17:38 You hire an architect.
17:40 You work with the architect.
17:41 Again, architecture team.
17:44 They do a complete design for you the way you want it.
17:47 You take that completed design,
17:48 you put it out to bid.
17:51 You select one of the bidders,
17:53 traditionally the lowest qualified bidder,
17:56 and their team carries out the construction.
18:03 As I said, this is the very traditional way
18:07 And I should say the architect typically does
18:10 continue in a construction administration role
18:12 to help kind of oversee the work.
18:18 One of the good things about this
18:19 is you get to work very closely with the design team.
18:21 But then there's this big disconnect.
18:22 Again, there's no line connecting
18:24 the architect and the contractor.
18:28 They're working in the same space,
18:31 but they don't have a contractual relationship.
18:33 There's nothing that defines the risk
18:35 and responsibilities they have to each other.
18:40 So there's this discontinuity.
18:41 There's this gap in knowledge
18:43 and gap in design intent
18:46 between design and construction.
18:48 There's no opportunity for design assist.
18:50 I want to define what that is,
18:51 and I'm going to come back to it again.
18:53 Design assist is the practice
18:55 of bringing in contractors,
18:57 specifically trade contractors,
18:59 during the design period,
19:00 before you're ready to start construction,
19:02 to help advise on the design.
19:05 So, you know, you want to build a brick wall.
19:08 You have an architect that's great.
19:10 Let's also bring in a mason
19:11 to talk about the best way to build this brick wall.
19:13 Now, that may not be that important for a brick wall,
19:16 but if you're going into an existing building
19:21 and there's a stain on the wall
19:23 and you don't know what's going on behind the wall,
19:24 I think it might be good to bring in a contractor
19:27 to open up the wall,
19:28 and maybe a roofer can help identify
19:31 where that water is coming from.
19:33 But even if it's a new build construction,
19:37 you know, mechanical equipment is big, heavy,
19:40 costs a lot of money,
19:41 and takes up a lot of room,
19:42 bringing in a mechanical contractor,
19:45 hopefully the one you're going to actually use
19:48 can really provide good advice
19:50 to the mechanical engineer on what to specify
19:53 and when to purchase it.
19:56 One thing with design bid build,
19:59 changes can be costly
20:00 because you get what you get in the bid,
20:02 and then at that point,
20:04 you know, you're sort of,
20:07 for whatever might not be in that bid.
20:11 and this sounds like it's being flippant,
20:14 but it's, you know, it's real.
20:16 This is the traditional way,
20:17 and so it's easy to justify.
20:19 No one ever took blame for doing design bid build.
20:23 The other positive potential
20:25 is that there's low overhead,
20:26 and by that, I mean,
20:27 there's no construction manager's fee.
20:29 There's no, you know, it is what it is.
20:35 Design bid build is appropriate,
20:37 I would say more for new construction,
20:39 although not exclusively,
20:40 but, you know, better for new construction.
20:45 It's appropriate for an owner
20:47 who can manage construction very well.
20:49 Of course, you can supplement with that owner's rep
20:52 or CM advisor to help you do that.
20:55 Obviously, it's appropriate
20:56 when it's low overhead in some cases.
20:59 When the project is relatively straightforward,
21:02 when there's a known bid environment,
21:05 when you have a good idea,
21:07 a really solid idea
21:08 of what the bids should be coming in at,
21:12 and you can manage the risk
21:14 through best value selection.
21:15 So that means you can structure your bid package
21:19 to ask for qualifications,
21:22 similar projects, recommendations, references.
21:25 It doesn't just have to be low bid.
21:27 So you can structure the bid package
21:29 so that you're getting the best value,
21:32 and that's also part of knowing
21:33 the bid environment,
21:34 making sure you have some sense
21:37 of the quality and reliability
21:39 and financial viability
21:41 of the people who are bidding on your project.
21:45 One important takeaway with design bid build,
21:48 you get one shot to get your price
21:50 and get your partner.
21:53 I mean, you can always rebid it,
21:55 but that's typically you end up
21:59 with worse results on the second bid
22:01 on the same project.
22:03 I want to talk about construction manager at risk.
22:07 So the term at risk here
22:09 means the construction manager
22:11 is holding the construction contracts.
22:13 The construction manager themselves
22:15 may or may not self-perform any physical work,
22:18 but they hold all the construction contracts.
22:20 They're going to deliver the project
22:22 to you, the physical project.
22:25 So typically what happens
22:27 in construction manager at risk,
22:28 you hire an architect,
22:29 and shortly after they get started,
22:31 hopefully in schematic design,
22:32 the first phase of design,
22:34 you bring on that construction manager.
22:36 The construction manager
22:37 is selected on qualifications.
22:39 They're going to have a fee,
22:42 but they're not giving you
22:43 a price for the project yet.
22:45 You're selecting the,
22:47 it's a professional services selection.
22:49 So you select them on their qualifications
22:52 and they're on early in the design
22:54 so that they, as the construction manager,
22:56 can bring in the expertise
22:58 of cost estimating, scheduling,
23:00 constructability review, quality assurance
23:03 into the process with the architect.
23:07 Any good architect should be happy
23:09 to work with the construction manager.
23:13 They make their work better.
23:15 Many of the most successful projects
23:17 I've done have been
23:17 with the construction manager.
23:20 They bring the trade contractors in.
23:22 They hold the trade contractors contracts,
23:27 and the construction manager
23:28 work throughout the project together.
23:32 Obviously, having those contractors
23:34 on gives you that opportunity
23:37 This is potential for high control
23:41 Often those relationships
23:42 are much more thoroughly defined
23:44 with the construction manager contract.
23:46 It pulls the team together early.
23:48 That has both psychological benefits
23:51 of just gelling as a team,
23:52 but also that variety of expertise
23:55 is available early on.
23:57 It's qualifications-based selection.
23:59 Again, you have that opportunity
24:02 Now, I will say with design assist,
24:03 you may be committing
24:05 to a subcontractor earlier.
24:06 You may have to pay for that,
24:08 but it can really pay dividends
24:10 if it's done wisely.
24:13 You're working on cost decisions
24:16 with the design process.
24:19 Instead of doing design,
24:21 you get an envelope
24:22 with a price in it,
24:23 you're working on that cost
24:25 together with the design process,
24:27 and you'll be getting
24:28 a guaranteed maximum price or GMP
24:32 even before the design is done.
24:34 Now, that GMP is very different
24:37 GMP is a very complex document
24:39 that encompasses the totality
24:42 of the project in words
24:43 and pictures and numbers.
24:45 So it needs a lot of review.
24:47 It takes time to develop.
24:49 It's ideally developed hand-in-hand
24:52 and the construction manager,
24:53 and the architect is reviewing it.
24:55 It has a lot of nuance to it.
24:56 It'll have contingencies
24:57 and allowances and all these things
24:59 that need careful review.
25:01 But you'll be getting that,
25:08 of the transparency.
25:09 You still get competitive pricing
25:11 from all the subcontractors,
25:13 but the project has to be big enough
25:14 to justify all this effort
25:16 and the construction manager's fee.
25:18 So this isn't for every project.
25:20 It's appropriate for larger,
25:23 It's appropriate for projects
25:24 that have a lot of unknowns
25:25 that will need to be worked through.
25:26 It's appropriate for projects
25:28 that have a lot of stakeholders
25:29 who are going to want to have say in it
25:30 or who appropriately should have say in it.
25:34 It's good for historic
25:34 or renovation projects
25:35 because you can get in there.
25:36 You can take things apart.
25:37 You can investigate.
25:39 It's good for projects
25:40 that have complex reporting requirements.
25:43 CMs are generally very good
25:44 at if you have minority
25:48 or other participation requirements.
25:52 That's something that needs to be managed
25:54 and done very carefully.
25:58 if quality is a high priority.
26:01 Last, I'm going to get into design build
26:06 and I'll try not to take too much time on this.
26:08 Design build basically
26:10 is when you hire a single entity
26:12 to do design and construction.
26:14 There's a lot of different
26:15 varieties of design build.
26:16 I'm going to touch on traditional bridging
26:20 and mention integrated briefly.
26:23 Traditional design build
26:25 is you send out an RFP
26:28 that describes your project
26:29 and people come back to you
26:31 I will deliver this project for this amount.
26:33 So their price is based on very scanty evidence.
26:38 If you're concerned that the bid
26:39 you get from design build
26:41 doesn't contain everything
26:42 when you have the architect's full drawings
26:44 you can imagine that
26:45 poorly designed RFP for design build
26:48 you really don't know what you're getting.
26:49 And you sometimes get a wide range of prices
26:51 and it's difficult to evaluate them.
26:55 So it's one contract for everything up front.
26:58 It's a sole source of responsibility.
27:00 That's one of the reasons
27:01 people like design build.
27:02 It's one of its big selling points.
27:04 It's, you know, the responsibility
27:08 and this is very clear.
27:13 You are buying the project all at once
27:17 What is that price?
27:19 You don't have all that detail
27:20 of the say the GMP.
27:24 low collaboration environment
27:25 because it's already
27:26 whatever it is is already baked in.
27:28 You can do best value evaluation for this.
27:32 As I mentioned there's a lack of transparency
27:34 in the traditional design build.
27:36 It is typically fast.
27:37 So we tend to see these
27:39 for very straightforward
27:41 very quick very cost conscious projects.
27:45 So it's appropriate
27:46 when desired outcomes are known and clear
27:48 when cost is more important than quality
27:50 which sometimes it is.
27:52 If you have a new build a clean site
27:55 if it's easy to compare bids
27:57 and the metrics are specific
27:59 and the means are less important.
28:02 Bridging design build
28:03 is sort of a hybrid
28:05 with construction manager at risk
28:07 in that you have a criteria architect.
28:10 So that's the C little C A
28:12 the criteria architect
28:14 does initial design for you
28:16 enough to define the parameters
28:19 The rooms, the sizes
28:20 the quality of finishes
28:22 maybe some specific finishes
28:23 there's a site layout.
28:24 There's there's enough
28:26 to really get your hands around.
28:28 So you have much more information
28:31 that the design builder can use
28:35 and their costs together.
28:36 And the criteria architect
28:37 typically will continue on
28:40 in a much more active role
28:42 during the during the rest
28:43 of the design build process.
28:44 So they're sort of acting as
28:46 your advocate or your owner's rep
28:48 although you could also have
28:48 an owner's rep with this.
28:52 What was the little C again on that one?
28:55 So it's the criteria architect.
28:58 I should define architect of record.
29:00 Architect of record
29:01 is the architect who puts
29:02 their stamp on the drawings
29:03 and has the legal responsibility
29:05 for the code compliance
29:07 The criteria architect
29:13 that's then taken over
29:14 by the architect of record.
29:17 So bridging design build
29:19 provides better control
29:20 of quality and scope
29:22 it provides really good
29:23 opportunities for collaboration.
29:25 The criteria architect
29:27 throughout typically.
29:29 There is good opportunities
29:30 for design assists.
29:32 You can do best value evaluation.
29:39 an alternative to CM at risk.
29:43 with progressive which we'll talk about
29:44 or you can add a CMA
29:47 and you can do fast track
29:50 is a means of speeding up
29:53 It's appropriate for mid
29:55 It's an alternative to CMR.
29:57 It's good for complex
30:00 and when you want better control
30:02 than design bid build
30:03 or traditional design build
30:04 this is a good option.
30:07 The criteria architect
30:10 the design build team
30:11 which is a good idea
30:12 because they've already
30:13 learned a lot about the project
30:14 and the engineers from that
30:16 criteria architect team
30:17 can transfer to the design
30:18 build team if desired.
30:22 Last I'm going to talk about
30:23 progressive design build
30:25 which you can do progressive
30:26 and bridging the same project.
30:29 In this case I'm also adding
30:31 integrated design build.
30:32 Integrated design build
30:33 just means the design builder
30:35 has architects in house
30:37 as opposed to hiring
30:38 an architecture firm
30:40 In progressive design build
30:41 your initial contract
30:43 is only for the design services
30:44 so the design builder
30:45 is green for design.
30:50 and then you get to either
30:53 like the construction manager
30:58 the full construction price.
31:01 This minimizes your upfront risk
31:04 and it makes the ultimate
31:06 much better informed
31:08 and much more accurate.
31:09 It reduces the need
31:10 for a lot of contingencies
31:14 So it's a two-stage contract.
31:16 You sign a design contract
31:17 with the design builder
31:19 when you get to bidding
31:21 and you do competitive bidding
31:22 competitive pricing
31:24 then you amend that contract
31:25 with the construction contract.
31:28 You get the full price
31:29 you understand what's in the price
31:30 you've seen the drawings
31:31 you've worked through it
31:32 with the architects
31:33 and the contractors.
31:37 So progressive design build
31:38 it's a two-stage contract
31:40 design then construction.
31:42 Owner protections can be built in.
31:47 triggers in the contract
31:48 for if the price is over this
31:50 or you can just have an escape clause
31:51 like we get to this point
31:52 we can sever the contract
31:54 and go about our lives
31:57 that can be structured
31:57 in some different ways.
32:00 with bridging design build
32:02 or you can bring in
32:06 to help you if you need that.
32:07 You get competitive bidding
32:09 and you work on the cost
32:11 together with design
32:13 Again you have that sole
32:14 source of responsibility
32:16 and the fast track opportunities.
32:19 So yeah this is just kind of a summary.
32:24 We looked at built to suit
32:28 construction manager risk
32:29 and varieties of design build
32:30 and I know I was going through
32:32 a lot of that really quick
32:33 but I didn't want everybody
32:38 There are a couple of quick things
32:39 I want to wrap up here
32:40 with some additional considerations.
32:42 One is whether you want to
32:43 have an owner's rep.
32:44 Again that could apply
32:45 to almost any delivery method.
32:48 We talked about the GMP
32:50 versus the lump sum.
32:51 The GMP has a lot more information
32:53 and it tends to be a higher price
32:56 It's a lot more work for you
32:57 and the construction manager
33:00 We talked about design assist.
33:03 That's always a great advantage
33:06 and you're obviously aware
33:09 of your requirements
33:10 for public transparency
33:10 and accountability.
33:13 the decision as well.
33:14 Not that any of these
33:15 is necessarily off limits.
33:17 Obviously consult with
33:19 your law department.
33:20 But I do want to leave
33:22 with some final thoughts
33:23 and I'd be happy to entertain
33:26 I'll go back to the beginning.
33:27 There's no silver bullet
33:31 Every delivery method
33:32 has an appropriate project
33:36 of a delivery method
33:37 is not always obvious.
33:40 but it's not always obvious
33:42 and there are nuances to these.
33:47 in the way they function
33:49 The legal structure between
33:52 bridging design build
33:54 and construction manager at risk
33:56 but there's a lot of similarities
33:58 in the way they function.
34:00 There's some nuance.
34:01 It's worth giving some thought to
34:02 and I appreciate you
34:04 to hear me pontificate about it.
34:08 In making that selection
34:09 you have to understand
34:12 Why are you doing this project?
34:13 What does success mean
34:16 What does failure mean
34:18 What are the best outcomes?
34:19 What's the potential
34:22 Which is most important
34:28 Yeah, we want all those things.
34:29 What is most important?
34:30 How can I control that?
34:33 How much resources,
34:35 how much capacity do I have
34:39 How much do I just need
34:43 Understand the relative balance
34:44 of risk, costs, quality,
34:47 These are all levers
34:48 that you can pull on the project
34:50 but you have to set them early.
34:52 If you decide to change
34:55 three-quarters of the way
34:57 it's going to cost a lot more
34:58 than setting that lever
34:59 at the beginning of design.
35:02 Understand the opportunities
35:07 is just a substrate
35:08 to provide the opportunity
35:09 to collaborate with professionals
35:16 really care about what they do
35:18 and want to do a good job
35:19 but we have to have
35:21 the structure that enables them
35:25 That's all I have to share
35:27 and I know it's a lot
35:29 to absorb in a short time
35:30 and I apologize for that
35:33 make sure I can answer
35:34 any questions you have.
35:37 Well first, thank you very much.
35:40 extremely helpful for me.
35:41 I hope it was helpful for others
35:43 but I was writing down
35:45 while you were talking
35:46 so very informative.
35:48 I have one quick question
35:50 on the previous slide.
35:55 so that's the criteria
35:57 or what you just tell me.
36:01 for construction manager advisor.
36:04 So they're not holding
36:05 the construction contracts.
36:06 They're really just an advisor.
36:09 That role has really evolved
36:10 into the owner's representative role
36:13 and the owner's representative
36:17 they represent the owner.
36:18 They advocate on the owner's behalf
36:20 and they help run the project
36:22 particularly if it's
36:24 a very complex project
36:25 that just needs that
36:26 full-time dedication
36:32 or the capacity to run that.
36:37 are more or less interchangeable
36:41 Colleagues questions?
36:44 Councilman Bullock.
36:46 Thank you and it was good
36:48 that you proactively included
36:50 the final thought slide
36:51 because I was going to ask you.
36:51 So what's the right answer?
36:54 A couple of just clarifying questions.
36:57 what LL means on the
37:01 And that's because built a suit
37:02 is very often a landlord
37:04 doing work for tenants.
37:06 Probably 75% of build to suit work
37:08 is landlord doing work for tenants.
37:11 And actually the city does have
37:14 property in which we own
37:17 but we have a property manager
37:19 in some ways is the landlord.
37:23 Is there is a theoretical one.
37:24 Is there a unit of measure for risk?
37:32 There's a unit of measure for entropy
37:33 so maybe we could adopt that.
37:35 I not that I know of.
37:37 This is for your next
37:39 professional association.
37:40 So that'll be the topic.
37:46 Would it be money schedule
37:48 and finish and like.
37:51 I mean it's sort of it's funny
37:54 but we do measure risk
37:56 and we measure it with money
37:57 and that we call that contingency
38:02 or sometimes it's interest rates.
38:04 You know so those are actuarial questions
38:09 that I wouldn't necessarily
38:11 be qualified to answer.
38:11 I you know just through experience
38:13 I have a good sense
38:14 of what are reasonable
38:15 construction contingencies
38:17 and how they should be used
38:18 and shouldn't be used.
38:23 that there's a hard and fast rule.
38:25 Okay there's a political cartoon
38:30 I remember years ago
38:31 where Einstein's at the chalkboard
38:32 and he realized that time equals money
38:34 and it was like they modified
38:37 So I'm sure at some point
38:38 you convert time risk
38:40 into monetary risk as well.
38:41 Sure and there yeah
38:43 there's mechanisms for that too.
38:44 I mean the classical mechanism
38:46 is liquidated damages
38:48 where you have a clause
38:49 in a contract that says
38:50 okay I'm going to be able
38:51 to occupy this building
38:53 and if I can't then you owe me
38:55 whatever a thousand dollars a day.
38:57 Well I mean this is a real thing
38:59 that happened in a real project
39:01 in the city of Lakewood at times.
39:03 Okay and then finally
39:04 where does this contract live?
39:06 Is this the development agreement
39:08 And I guess what the attorneys
39:11 is a stack of templates
39:13 which they can pull
39:14 some of these different options
39:17 and begin to mix the colors
39:21 So you're looking for like
39:23 yeah I'm just in the spirit
39:25 of the professional vocabulary
39:29 who are generalists
39:30 doing our best to represent
39:34 Is the contract the same thing
39:35 as the development agreement
39:36 or the development agreement
39:37 comes after the contract
39:39 so yeah these contracts
39:42 may apply to any type
39:45 of construction project
39:46 and may be subordinated
39:48 to a development agreement
39:53 that would describe
39:54 a broader relationship
39:58 who's a property owner
40:00 and an ultimate user
40:04 Actually Kyle might be
40:05 the best person to answer that
40:07 but I hope that's helpful.
40:09 Yeah I think to Tom's point
40:12 it's there's always going to be
40:14 a construction contract
40:15 for someone who builds
40:16 There's always going to be
40:18 for someone who designs a building
40:20 where those sit right.
40:21 Is it under the same entity
40:22 or the separate entities?
40:24 Are they all in line
40:26 or are they all in line
40:27 It just depends on where they
40:29 it's called privity of contractor.
40:31 It's like who do you go like
40:33 who do you seek redress
40:34 for an issue you're having
40:35 with your contract right.
40:38 So if we were in contract
40:39 with the landlord or an owner
40:40 we'd have to go to them.
40:41 If we had a designer
40:44 we'd have to determine
40:46 whether it was a design issue
40:47 or a construction issue
40:48 and we'd have to figure that out
40:50 The beauty of design build
40:51 as Carter said is that
40:53 the designer can point
40:54 to the contract and you say
40:55 I don't care it's one contract
40:57 it's your fault right
40:58 and so it's just it just depends
40:59 on what you want right.
41:00 But it's all all of these things
41:03 are going to need to be there's going
41:04 to be some contract somewhere
41:05 it's just where it's at
41:06 how transparent is it
41:09 Okay and I'll conclude
41:10 it sounds like the point
41:13 is good fences make good neighbors
41:15 that good contracts make good partners
41:18 and get clear beforehand
41:21 in our thinking about
41:23 What our goals are in there
41:26 of partnership will serve
41:29 the goals and the circumstances.
41:30 I would say good contracts
41:32 are a good substrate
41:34 I mean you can have a good fence
41:35 and your neighbor could still be
41:36 you know blasting metallica
41:38 at two in the morning.
41:38 So I mean maybe you like that.
41:43 Other council members questions
41:46 members of the administration
41:47 any follow up questions.
41:53 So I just want to once again
41:55 thank you Mr. Redmond for being here
41:57 and for your this is extremely informative.
41:59 Council members if you
42:01 as you dwell process all of this
42:05 and members of the administration too
42:06 if there are follow up questions
42:09 Mr. Redmond's like he said
42:11 he's interested in you know
42:13 make himself available
42:14 to explain any of these terms
42:15 but we'll maybe ask the clerks
42:18 so he doesn't as a volunteer
42:19 have to answer a million emails
42:23 Yeah council member Hamilton Stein.
42:24 Thank you president couple.
42:27 I did have some questions
42:28 and so I'm more of a visual learner
42:31 so are you able to give examples
42:34 of projects maybe you've worked on
42:35 or maybe projects that you know
42:37 used each specific style.
42:39 So when we talk about design build
42:41 if you could just give some examples
42:43 that would just help me sort of
42:45 visualize and I'm sorry
42:48 I don't have pictures
42:52 I actually when I was working
42:54 for the city of Cleveland
42:55 we did some build to suit projects
42:57 in some property that we were leasing
43:00 so that we have you know
43:01 city hall doesn't contain
43:02 so we also at least some office
43:04 building space downtown
43:06 we did build to suit
43:09 it went reasonably well
43:10 it was a very good landlord
43:12 but you know the structural problems
43:15 this standard office fit out
43:21 most of the work I did
43:22 for the city of Cleveland
43:23 was design bid build
43:25 so I've had a variety of success
43:29 and some less successful in that
43:32 a lot of work on rec centers
43:35 police and fire stations
43:36 was design bid build
43:40 we also had some on call services
43:44 for architects and design
43:46 so if you have like little things
43:48 you need now and then
43:49 I need somebody to you know
43:50 design a renovation for this office
43:52 having on call services
43:53 for architects and engineers
43:54 can be a handy way to do that
43:55 so you pre-select people
43:57 and then you just assign them work
44:01 CMR I worked for a Boston design
44:04 partnership for a long time
44:05 we did a lot of health care
44:07 most of that was CMR
44:09 all the work we did
44:09 for the Cleveland clinic
44:12 or integrated project delivery
44:14 which we didn't really talk about
44:16 some of those were quite large
44:19 if you're familiar with the
44:20 JJ parking garage and office complex
44:23 it's on 93rd street
44:25 it's sort of the main parking garage
44:26 when you go to the central clinic
44:28 I was the project architect for that
44:30 over the course of several years
44:32 that was a CMR project
44:33 they also that construction manager
44:35 also self-performed the concrete
44:37 so it was a very well integrated team
44:39 and a very successful project
44:43 design build design build is
44:46 so I want to be clear
44:47 that I'm not pushing design build
44:49 it's one of all these options
44:51 and we do all types of these
44:55 we prefer progressive design build
44:56 but I've done all types of these
44:58 and again you run into some of these issues
45:04 of trying to bid on something
45:07 that just has a sketch
45:09 or a verbal description
45:12 it's challenging for the owner
45:13 but it's also challenging
45:14 for the design builder
45:20 we worked on those as well
45:21 where maybe the owner
45:24 in some cases the owner
45:25 has an architect that they like
45:26 and they work with a lot
45:28 but they want to do a design build project
45:30 so they'll use their architect
45:31 to do a nice set of criteria documents
45:36 and then yeah progressive design build
45:38 is most what most of our projects are
45:42 and and a little bit
45:44 just at least you know
45:46 Sean McDermott sitting here
45:47 so he and I work together
45:48 a lot on our projects
45:49 at cleveland metro parks
45:51 another public entity
45:52 and you know design bid build
45:54 is kind of the traditional model
45:56 but as far as some projects around town
45:58 that you may recognize
45:59 most of cleveland metro parks
46:00 and zoo based projects
46:03 are construction manager at risk
46:07 because what it does
46:08 is it gives the owner
46:11 and it's you can kind of
46:14 iteratively go through
46:16 and build a project
46:17 design build you have less control
46:20 because that designer
46:22 is under the same contract
46:23 with the contractor
46:24 so you get a little bit less like
46:29 thoughtful checking
46:32 because they're saying hey
46:34 you know maybe I disagree
46:35 with your numbers here
46:36 or or I respectfully think
46:37 that you're you're off
46:39 so we use design build
46:40 a lot of metro parks for
46:42 we have this amount of money
46:47 and so how can we get
46:48 as close to that grant amount
46:49 of money that we have
46:51 and get as much paying for the buck
46:55 Sean did I describe it well
46:57 all right thank you
47:02 so we're getting close on time here
47:04 so if there are additional questions
47:07 let's we can coalesce those
47:10 these are not deliberating again
47:12 on any particular thing
47:15 what these things are
47:16 that would be the scope
47:18 here for a volunteer
47:19 who's very thoughtfully
47:21 given us his expertise
47:22 so thank you Mr. Edmund
47:23 we really appreciate
47:25 you sharing all this with us
47:28 all right with that
47:32 coming to the hole here
47:32 we have just a couple minutes to do
47:34 we're going to do our group picture
47:36 up here so if everyone can just stay here
47:39 we'll have our appointee come up
47:41 we'll do our group shot
47:42 and then I see Mr. Weiner
47:47 Matt can also get his headshot
47:49 and then we'll start full count
47:50 so hopefully right on the dot at 7 30
47:52 so folks who are here
47:55 can get on with their night
47:56 all right so with that
47:58 no further business
47:59 before coming to the hole